User talk:SkyWriter

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!  --Flex (talk|contribs) 20:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi can you just add the new earth and new heaven at the top of the post. i cant cuz its locked Thanks. the died rise and those who are still alive enter the new earth and the new heaven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.234.247 (talk) 03:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I got your message on my talk page. Glad to have you on-board! If you have any questions or concerns that I can help you with, feel free to leave me another message on my talk page. Cheers! --Flex (talk|contribs) 19:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, what are you interests and areas of expertise? --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Flex – thanks for your note. Interests and areas of expertise… First the last: I have a doctorate in theology, and am a writer and I work as an engineer. I’m interested in engineering resources and writing theory, and am especially interested in theology and textual criticism relating to Judaism and Christianity. I’m currently finishing a book related to New Testament textual criticism, and am looking forward to doing the same for the Hebrew Bible, after vacationing in some fiction for a year.

Thanks! Perhaps you'd consider adding that to your user page. Since I've got your ear, we have a question of sourcing over at Bruce Metzger that you might help us resolve. With a doctorate and an interest in texual criticism, I don't doubt that you're familiar to with his work. In particular, we're looking for documentation and details on Metzger's view of biblical inerrancy and infallibility (the article currently says he denies the former [because of grammatical aberrancies and so forth, which most conservatives intentionally overlook in their definitions] but accepts the latter). Could you come up with a source or at least point us in the right direction? You could post a response at Talk:Bruce_Metzger#Original_research. --Flex (talk|contribs) 15:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see User_talk:Flex#Metzger. Cheers! --Flex (talk|contribs) 16:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just noted your changes to my contributions to the Critical Text article. I am very impressed. You rewrote it in a very pleasing and concise manner. Thanks.--Rclose 23:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Any chance you could leave a brief note at User talk:Alastair Haines regarding how the % deviation from NA27 is defined? Shalom. Alastair Haines 14:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Tim, thanks so much for a prompt reply. As I suspected, your provision of this statistic is based on all the responsible factors it needs to be. Naturally, there are still some subjective judgements, and a reader's ability to interpret the actual percentage needs a clear definition of what counts as 100%; for example, percentage of text-critical decisions, or percentage of all words in the NT. Presumably it is the former, given the size of the percentages.

As statistics like these are immensely helpful if compiled and presented responsibly, I thought I'd know of them unless they were recent scholastic contributions. Congratulations on worthwhile and exacting research! Godspeed to your publisher!

My only comment is that "vertical exaggeration" is very helpful for Christian readers. What I mean is, comparison of text-critical choices may just help KJV afficionados realize what they do to themselves. However, for non-Christians to see even 5% on an impossibly good translation could lead cynics to scoff at Christian scholarship.

I'm sure you've made the right choice on this too. I just wish to stress the importance of making the definition of the statistic as easy for a reader to interpret as is realistically possible.

What do you think of this page?

Shalom. Alastair Haines 04:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Tim, thanks again, please send me the article, I will read it with great interest. I bought Comfort and Barrett to help me make my own judgements on text-critical issues, though nearly everything I know was taught to me by reading Metzger's various contributions. Alastair Haines 16:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again Tim,

I thought I'd put some work into getting standard text-critical information up onto Wiki. So far I'm mainly working on structure and tools like templates and categories. It's rather fun to be able to link to German and Italian Wiki articles on various things, but rather sad these articles are not in English yet. List of New Testament uncials will give you a feel for where things are at. Still a lot of work to go.

Cheers, alastair Alastair Haines 13:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source for the measures of conformity to the Nestle-Aland text and "paraphrase rate"? The latter, in particular, has a very unscientific air about it. These info boxes are widespread, but there is no attribution given to reliable sources. Both numbers are useless for the encyclopedia without attribution to a reliable source. And there is no discussion defining these terms at Template talk:Bible translation infobox. Wareh 21:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After writing the above, I have seen the discussion at User_talk:Alastair_Haines/Archive_2#Definition_of_Text_Deviations. But this does nothing for my concerns. Even if the book has "hit Amazon," that most certainly does not make it a reliable source whose information should appear, cited or uncited, in all of our Bible translation pages. The way this data was being promoted before it was even published forces me to ask what personal connection the various Wikipedia editors (you, Alastair Haines) have to the book. The standard for a reliable source is more like endorsement in book reviews in respected journals. These numbers seem to amount to a recent publishing venture, not a standard or respected measure of anything. And the recent edits seem to reflect an ignorance of significant figures. Wareh 21:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response. It doesn't yet make total sense to me or answer all my concerns. For example, the attribution issue remains; it is essential that these figures appear on no pages without a clear reference to the reliable source from which they are drawn. The treatment of significant figures still appears absurd.

But basically my main concern is still that, despite appearing in infoboxes (which suggest that fairly universally agreed-upon facts are being provided), it is hard on the face of it to believe that most scholars would not deride the idea that these numbers provide useful or meaningful information. By the way, if both numbers apply only to the New Testament, then the format in which "paraphrase rate" is presented is highly misleading, since most of these Bibles include an Old Testament.

(1) Deviation rate. On the fundamental level, what evidence can you provide that a list of "14992 translatable differences between the Greek, Latin, and Syriac text-forms" (especially, that label, "translatable") commands agreement among scholars? How does this number compare to the number of variants appearing in the apparatus of the UBS edition (not because this is a perfect inventory, but because it is at least a widely recognized set of cases)? Then, the numbers themselves appear ridiculous. Are you telling me that, in cases where variant readings exist, Bibles like NRSV and NJB demonstrably choose a different reading than that printed in Nestle-Aland in 18-28% or around 2700-4200 cases? Any such list would be easy to refute, and I'm sure it would come as a surprise to the translators who worked on those versions; how do you reconcile their point of view with the view given by these numbers? Or does the number mean something else, in which it is inscrutable and useless to the encyclopedia reader?

(2) Paraphrase rate. I include the redlink to indicate that this will only be meaningful if the concept is defined, and that it only belongs in the infobox if the concept has a widely accepted definition which we can write up in an encyclopedia article. I don't know what to say about your definition, "do not agree completely with ANY text type," except that, while the numbers may have been crunched according to a consistent algorithm, this notion of disagreement itself is quite far from neutrality and objectivity. While the word-for-word and dynamic equivalence approaches to translation are widely recognized, I need better evidence that this effort to measure the "translation type" quantitatively (to the hundredth of a percentage point, no less) is anything but quackery. I know plenty enough Greek to know that the English meaning conveyed word-by-word and sentence-by-sentence in the NJB New Testament follows a definitely identifiable Greek text a lot more than 73% of the time. I'm not saying a rational discussant can't identify paraphrase, but your formula relating paraphrase to text-critical issues is confused. What is really being quantified? I imagine it is something like "word-for-wordness, whether that provides a correct translation or not."

These numbers have all the signs of being pseudoscience, measures conceived to broadcast prejudices that assume a dubious notion of "textual fidelity," and I believe they're only in the encyclopedia because they've fallen through the cracks. It seems a no-brainer to expunge them from all the Bible articles. If, in fact, they are worthy of note in the encyclopedia, the first steps to be taken by anyone who wants to include them are obvious:

1. Write articles on the Bible metrics themselves, providing not only an exposition of their meaning in their creators' own terms, with footnotes, but also evidence that they are a notable subject for an encyclopedia, because they have received reviews and discussion in reliable journals, books, etc.
2. Accept that, until or unless these numbers become a truly accepted standard by some significant range of scholars, they should only be reported in the article on the Bible metrics. I don't see any reason why such an article, if it passes the notability test, could not include comprehensive charts giving the measures calculated by various authorities for various translations. (If "paraphrase rates" are reported to the .01%, they will be laughed at, though.)

I'll wait for your response before initiating the needed cleanup, but I hope you can see why I feel little doubt that the community of Wikipedia editors, if this is brought to their attention, will be able to figure out how little these numbers belong where they are now being presented.

Wareh 17:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Linking to http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html is not particularly helpful, since, if we accept it completely (which is a big if, since it's just a web page), it provides no basis for calculating a "paraphrase rate," and there is no evidence that the data has been "reverse engineered" (as you say) soundly to produce the "deviation rate." The number itself is still unattributed, and you're not linking to a list of the allegedly thousands of departures from NA in modern New Testament translations. Wareh 18:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not in a hurry to change anything, and I don't want to delete without understanding. I think you've seen that my invitation to expound these methods in their own article (which will fly or not according to the encyclopedia's guidelines) reflects a basic inclusiveness on my part. I just don't want readers to draw unwarranted inferences from these infoboxes. In your very long response, I still don't feel you've helped me with the specific points that are unclear to me. Are you telling me that the transformation of the bible-researcher.com data into these numbers is your own work? If so, I'm very uncomfortable with what you'd then be telling me: "It's original research, but I invite you to take over all my methods and reproduce my original research." This would be clearly contrary to Wikipedia policy. Moreover, it's the validity of the methods that's in question, not whether calculation errors have been made. (Can you answer directly: what is the most reliable source that vouches for the validity of these methods?) If the actual numbers being reported in infoboxes cannot be sourced, then they are OR and that's the end of the discussion, right? Finally, if I were to follow your methods and reproduce the "paraphrase rate" numbers, even if I were in total agreement about the sequence (in other words, I looked at the ordered list of paraphrase rates and felt it accurately described some quality of the translations), that would not address the question of whether it is meaningful as a number. And please address specifically my complaint above that your formulation, "do not agree completely with ANY text type," confuses textual-basis issues with translation-style issues. As to the "deviation rate," I gather you're inviting me to undertake the compilation of a list on my own of, say, all the cases (out of 995 alleged total) where the NRSV in a sample NT passage is "firm agreement with a different text form" than the Nestle-Aland text. Surely the minimum you can do to help me out is to point me to where someone has already done this! If there's no such reference to provide, then how on earth can other editors accept its inclusion? Heck, even if it is your original research, I'd still like to see a sample list of supposed NA-deviations in an NRSV passage. P.S. Feel free to respond wherever you like, but it would be easier to follow if it stayed all here where it began. Wareh 19:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Just in case it is a useful compromise. Consider how at least the "translation type" box could reflect wider consensus labeling. That is, use labels like "dynamic equivalence" or whatever, and base them on the comparative numbers if you like. But since the numbers are not exactly the point and/or meaningful in this context, wouldn't the right way for a reader to see the number in context be (1) click on wikilink dynamic equivalence, (2) notice in that article that there are Greek New Testament metrics that aim to produce a comparative measure of this quality, (3) visit that article to see a chart of such numbers, with an explanation of their methodology and meaning. This would at least seem to be a more appropriately humble way to try to include that number. Wareh 20:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wareh,

I apologize for the rush a few hours ago. I just got home and only have five minutes. But I appreciate your suggestions. Since the numbers do not differ from what is found on other web sites so far as sequencing is concerned, I think your idea of using descriptions is ideal here. Formal Equivalence up to the RSV, then Dynamic Equivalence up to the NLT, etc. I can make those changes tomorrow night and they won't disagree with the numbers or other web sites. If I make that change, will I still need to list all the sources? There are a lot to choose from. As for Alexandrian / Byzantine... perhaps we could discuss the best terms to use.

Also, I found another site that does Textual Variant mapping with translations: http://bible.ovu.edu/terry/tc/index.htm I think it only does ten translations, though. However, you can probably do a quick sample of that site's maps and come up with similar numbers. Unfortunately, MY source is dragging it's heels on final publication, so counting a sample from that site or doing a quick sample from Marlowe are the only current links.

Would you be so kind as to help me find the least disruptive terminology to wrap the data in -- particularly with regard to the NA27 correspondence rate? I also noticed that the Flesch Kincaid readability statistics don't show up on the boxes. This is another set of information that is useful, and anyone with a readability calculater (like the one on Microsoft Word) can reproduce those scores.

Anyhow -- the information is only useful in a format that people can assimilate. The descriptions instead of numbers make sense, and an article on metrics could explain the demarcation points.

I'll make those changes tomorrow.

Best,

Tim 21:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Tim, What you're saying answers some of my concerns. The outstanding issue is still the "deviation rate." Looking at your latest link, I think I finally, maybe, might understand what it is (you never did define it adequately for me). I still might need to have a closer look at the numbers to be sure I can see what's going on here (I think the large number of "translatable differences" is badly misstated; the correct way to count is to say that your latest link covers three translatable differences in Philemon, UBS3c gives four—the number 14992 is an order of magnitude bigger than the plain-English truth!). The questions I'm left with involve (1) labeling/message, (2) motivation. A sample infobox line reads, "28.25% deviation from Nestle-Aland 27th edition (NT)." I just don't believe this is good English for what the statistic communicates. It suggests that the text on which a translation is based is in some meaningful sense 28% discrepant from the text printed as NA. Obviously this isn't true. Yes, I understand, again, to make a sequence, you want as dramatic a spread of agreement rates as possible, so you look at only the UBS-approved translatable variants. A more honest number would be an actual count: "Of the n translatable variants given in the UBS apparatus, this translation chooses a different reading in p cases." I don't want to belabor this point because you seem willing to replace the misleading number with text for infobox purposes anyway. But the larger question here is: what on earth important information do you believe this number conveys? Nestle-Aland, while widely used, is just an edition of the Greek New Testament. I can't imagine that there is any terminology (disruptive or not) to describe the quality of "being exactly like Nestle-Aland in choosing among textual variants, the vast majority of which are trivial in nature." There's no terminology because this is not really meaningful information apart from satisfying a kind of idle curiosity. That's why I ask about motivation... I see you're linking websites that promote textus receptus—fine, and from the textus-receptus-is-the-divinely-guaranteed-word-of-God point of view, I guess "number of times the translators saw fit to chuck out the divinely guaranteed word of God" might be a meaningful thing to count. But you can't reengineer this concept to apply to a modern critical edition such as Nestle-Aland, because it only claims to be a critical edition done by fallible humans (that is the whole point of an apparatus, and the letter grades quoted in your latest link: they indicate that the editors recognize doubt in many cases, and likewise if competent editors doing translations have chosen variants where the UBS editors claim "the text is virtually certain," it means they think the UBS editors are wrong). So, as a starting point on "deviation rate," I'd really just like an explanation of why you think it provides intelligible and encyclopedic information in the first place. Best, Wareh 00:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. There are some hints and traces that someone wanted to use the idea of a "text type." This term doesn't really apply to editions (Greek or English) of the New Testament as much as it applies to single witnesses. A manuscript can show an "Alexandrian text type," "Western," etc., and I suppose if a translation slavishly followed that manuscript, we could say it reflects the same text type. But translations are eclectic mixes of text type, and I don't see how the flavor of that eclecticism can be captured by a meaningful label, let alone quantified. Wareh 00:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wareh,

Thanks for your note. Actually, I only gave you the Marlowe list because it was the one I could find at the time – not because that particular list used the Textus Receptus as a baseline. For Philemon, the Terry list has only three locations with four variants – for a total of seven options. Terry has the ASV disagreeing with the Nestle-Aland 100% of the time in this sample – so of course it is far too limited a sample. Marlowe lists thirty-six optional readings (eighteen times two) and gives the Greek sources, but no translation mapping. The COM NT shows thirty-nine optional readings. Since we had discussed the New Revised Standard, I checked the COM NT notes and found one NRS deviation, in verse 10. For that verse the Nestle-Aland gives two variant readings, but only one is translatable into English: “the chains” in the Nestle-Aland is “my chains” in a variant. The NRS reads “my imprisonment” which would agree with the variant against the Nestle-Aland. Minor? Certainly. Accidental? Possibly. Nevertheless, it does agree with the variant against the Nestle-Aland. Usefulness? I think here’s the heart of what I see you exploring: what is the usefulness? For some kind of attack or disparagement, none at all. That is certainly not my intention at all. And though I personally use the Nestle-Aland, I recognize that it remains a work in progress. The usefulness of the metrics is not in attack, but in sequencing the translations. If a person wants to have a literal translation, the lowest paraphrase rate is the end to start. If they want a readable translation, the Flesch Kincaid numbers show where to start (and I don’t understand why these aren’t showing in the boxes – this is a hugely important metric). If they want to keep up to date with the Nestle-Aland in their personal Bibles, the lowest deviation rate (or highest agreement rate) would be the place to start. That’s all. It’s merely a number derived from a raw count of agreement with the Nestle-Aland as a comparative tool between translations. And to your point regarding the usefulness of looking at as many translatable differences as possible. Compare the Terry results for the ASV with the COM NT results. Terry has the ASV disagree 100% of the time! The COM NT has nineteen Nestle-Aland readings with an additional twenty from Pierpont-Robinson and about a dozen other possible sources. The larger number gives a more realistic list for the ASV: it unambiguously agrees with the Nestle-Aland 13 out of 19 times. For this book alone there is a 68% AGREEMENT with the Nestle-Aland, instead of the 100% DISAGREEMENT from the tiny list that Terry gave. The larger sampling gives better metrics.

I hope this has answered your questions. Now for my question: how best to describe it? How about High Correspondence down through the NRS, and Medium Correspondence down through the TEV? Then, starting with the NLT, DRA, etc.. these could be listed individually. NLT “update to the Living Bible paraphrase.” DRA “High Correspondence to the Clementine Vulgate” etc. Would that be fair? We can’t in good conscience describe them all as high correspondence! Especially below the NET, which describes in it’s own footnotes it’s large number of differences with the Nestle-Aland.

Best,

Tim 00:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS -- One caveat. The loose terms "High Correspondence" are left hanging without the actual percentages listed. Someone WILL ping us for the metrics if we list it that way. I know it's good enough for other sites, but Wikipedia should use something quantifiable. It's like "Easy to read" for the REB. What in the world does that mean? That translation has a Flesch Kincaid reading level at the sixth grade. Specifically, 6.0 -- with the RSV at 6.6, etc. Although the numbers may vary slightly between the measurements different people can make based on their sample size, the equations are pretty well established. Also, where does "literal" end and "dynamic equivalent" begin? At least with a number based on a real count is something useful. I think the question is -- do we REALLY want to put subjective descriptions in or objective percentages? I'm okay with the subjective descriptions if you'll back me up later on that methodology (at least until a metrics page is up). Is that fair?

For the demarcations I've proposed, the "Dynamic Equivalent" boundary should begin at the RSV simply because that translation coined the description for itself "as literal as possible, as free as necessary". And since the JNT (Jewish New Testament) is unabashed in it's use of Yiddish and other phrases to give a Jewish feel -- it's a safe spot to begin "paraphrase" at. But, again -- how do you describe the fact that the NJB, TEV, and REB are even more paraphrased without a number?

Tim 01:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From my knowledge of NJB and REB, "paraphrase" is not a correct description. (I can see it a bit more with REB, but NEB should register as clearly on the not-paraphrase side of the line.) All the more so since you seem to accept that the explicit principles of the translators can be looked to for guidance. I don't know the JNT, but it sounds subjective to say that the use of Yiddish is obviously ("safe spot to begin") paraphrastic. After all, if I choose a Yiddish synonym, that's a question of register and not denotation, which a "paraphrase rate" could not hope to measure accurately. I think to validate the label "paraphrase," you need to show that the versions are scoring close to a translation that explicitly paraphrases, like The Message. And the inclusion of NJB and REB, which anyone using the English terms in their accepted meaning would not characterize as paraphrase, is enough for me to prove that the labels have not been applied as carefully as possible. Wareh 17:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can BEGIN the paraphrase with Phillips and above, although I have no data on the relationship of the NLT to the Phillips and will be forced to default to "dynamic." However, that leaves the first demarcation in question now. We'll end up calling almost everything a dynamic and practically remove the meaning of the word itself. "If EVERYTHING is true, then NOTHING is true" -- that kind of idea. So, now, where to begin dynamic? Starting with RSV makes no sense at all if we are going to include REB and NJB (not to mention NLT!) in the same category. The RSV and ESV are definitely not the same as the REB and NJB, and to paraphrase your last note: "the inclusion of NJB and REB [in the same category as the RSV and ESV], which anyone using the English terms in their accepted meaning would not characterize as [identical], is enough for me to prove that the labels have not been applied as carefully as possible." Do we add a fourth category, or do we start calling RSV and ESV formal equivalent, even though neither italicize implied words the way formal equivalents routinely do? We almost need 1) formal equivalent: ASV, KJV, NKJ, NAS, NAU; 2) dynamic equivalent: RSV, ESV, etc.; 3) free translation: REB, NLT, etc.; 4) paraphrase: Phillips, the Message, the Living. Suggestions? I'm really open here, believe it or not :-) Tim 18:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS -- Wareh, I’ve looked at my information in more detail and compared it to the other site. I’m leaning toward the four category option. How about the following?

Formal Equivalent: KJV, NKJ, ASV, DRA, NAS, NAU

Dynamic Equivalent: MRD, RSV, ESV, NET, HCS, NRS, NAB

Free Translation: NIV, JNT, NJB, TEV, REB, NLT

Paraphrase: Living

My only caveat is that I’ve inverted the sequence of the NAB and the NIV to match the definition of “free” given in the Master’s Seminary analysis that I linked. The NAB has a fraction of a percent higher paraphrase rate than the NIV, and the Master’s Seminary samples were based on limited sections. But, it is close enough to live with for me, if you can also. This has the following advantages: A) it doesn’t jar anyone’s expectations, B) it’s CLOSE to the truth, with the exception of the NAB-NIV sequence, C) we can link the Master’s Seminary page for the “free translations” designation (we won’t need to do so for the others), and D) it allows us to place the NJB and REB in a “non-paraphrase” designation without destroying the meaning of dynamic equivalence. Tim 18:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Tim, I'm so glad this discussion has produced the results (through your willingness to do more work) that it has. Looking at the pages you've recently edited (I just looked at NKJV), I see that all categories of information are now plainly labeled in English (with wikilinks, which is very helpful). I really feel this is far preferable, just from the point of view that a widespread infobox should provide readily comprehensible and meaningful information. Each individual item now makes sense to me. So thanks for your open-mindedness on this, and for your work in improving these boxes. As to the reading level test, I don't have a good technical understanding why it's not displaying (I certainly agree it would be appropriately included). I have no outstanding concerns at all if the newly edited pages I've seen are the standard for what will be added elsewhere. And I'm sincerely sorry if some of my skepticism about the quality and motivation of the information was expressed too severely. (I still have some reservations about the unpublished status of your data set. It would be better if it were both published and had been subject to reviews, etc. But the result of your recent changes is that anyone can decide whether the plain-English label is correct—if they dispute it, I'm sure you'll have something to say about the basis on which the comparisons were made! I hope you do agree with me that, at least at some point down the road, it would be nice to see the information-processing methods treated in good articles on their own, and that that would then provide the natural home for the numbers produced by one or another analysis project. The goal is not to keep the numbers out, but to put them in the right context. I feel that it's the natural order of things to click on a label like "Masoretic/Dead Sea Scrolls," etc., before being confronted with numbers that really do not explain themselves.) Keep up the good work! Wareh 18:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wareh, thanks for the feedback. It might be a couple of days before I get all the updates finished, but they should be complete this week, including the Old Testament and Apocrypha. I can certainly see how the links to the different categories can help folks who are coming at this cold. If it helps -- I've been approaching all of this from a Quality Engineering angle instead of a theological one. We do a lot of metrics at work, so I tend to hunt down anything with a graph (which is why I prefer Aland's book on the text of the New Testament over Metzger's -- numbers and graphs!).

I think your labels are a little off if the New Jerusalem Bible is a "paraphrase." I feel that in any reasonable scale your label for this version shouldn't go beyond "dynamic equivalence." This is the version whose page happens to be on my watchlist (that's how I got into this whole issue), but I'm sure my judgment would extend to other pages as well. I have no problem going through the NJB sentence by sentence and clause by clause and seeing where everything's coming from in the Hebrew and Greek. Surely "paraphrase" should be reserved for The Message (Bible), or some of the plain-English Bibles that truly use paraphrase more liberally. (Obviously, it would be helpful to have an ordered list of these statistics to have an intelligent conversation about this. You seem to have one—can you produce it here?) Wareh 14:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wareh -- what I'm looking at has the JNT at a 20% paraphrase rate, the NJB at 23%, the TEV at 27%, the REB at 28%, the NLT at 33%, and the Living Bible at 38%. I had basically divided the descriptions into three categories: formal equivalence, dynamic equivalence, and paraphrase (similar to the article on the link below). Since the RSV defined dynamic equivalence ("as literal as possible, as free as necessary") it seemed a good place for the first division. Since the JNT was designed to put modern Jewish idioms on the NT text (even to the point of using Yiddish expressions) it seemed the right place to begin the second division. That broke the 21 translations I had data on into nearly three even groups. Formal: KJV, NKJ, ASV, DRA, NAS, NAU, and MRD. Dynamic: RSV, ESV, COM (not listed yet), NET, HCS, NRS, NIV, and NAB. Paraphrase: JNT, NJB, TEV, REB, NLT, and TLB. Part of the paraphrase problems the NJB and REB have stem from hybrid "Western" readings that the DRA does to a lesser extent. But I looked at the passages marked as hybrid in the COM NT and they really could not be identified to any text-form on any of my Greek NTs, even including the marginal notes in the Nestle-Aland, which were about the same size as the COM NT notes themselves. I understand that the COM NT is only on prepub right now and we can't use the data. But I don't want to put down something that I know is wrong even for the sake of believability. You're my voice of conscience here -- so I'll ask -- where should I draw the line between paraphrase and dynamic? I found a separate analysis at http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj1d.pdf that consistently shows the Jerusalem Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible within one translation of the Living Bible on their paraphrase scales. Their last scale is sequenced at: ASV, KJV, NKJ, NAS, NAB, RSV, MLB, NIV, TEV, NEB, JB, Phillips, TLB. That's not identical to the COM NT scale, but it's pretty close. If you break that list into thirds, you get dynamic starting at the NAB and paraphrase starting no later than the NEB. Since you're a good indication of how an intelligent reader will react... what's your suggestion? Tim 17:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PS -- I just found more detail in that article stating what terms they would use for each translation. I can use their terms and link to the article if it helps. It makes me uncomfortable to list JNT as a dynamic, but I'll have to do it in order to make sense of what I'm putting down. Phillip's and the Living and the Message are obvious. The NLT claims to be a translation -- so... that would be the only uncertainty for me. Also, they have the RSV as formal equivalence. If I follow their demarcations, the NIV is the BEGINNING of the dynamic equivalence section. Should I go with it? Tim 17:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can live with "free translation." Wareh 15:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reading level was added anonymously to Template:Bible translation infobox on March 19, and anonymously removed three days later, with the comment, "It appears someone was adding his one personal opinion about the 'reading level' of various Bibles. I could find no source for this addition, so I reverted all the edits." Obviously, this is somewhat similar to my concern ("Here are a bunch of numbers in the article...where do they come from?!" Since there are many automated tools and standards out there, I don't see the reading level is so objectionable. So feel free to revert the March 22 removal of it from the template. But if you do so, you should at the same time respond to that comment on the talk page. Wareh 14:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wareh,

Thanks for the information on the reading levels. I've been examining the reading levels in a number of calculators, and I’ve found a good bit of disagreement between them. Even worse, I’ve found that some web sites, like Zondervan, are posting reading levels for competing translations – and the numbers for their own translation seem to agree with Flesch-Kincaid, while their numbers for other translations seem to agree with Gunning Fog. The problem is that Flesch-Kincaid calculates 75% comprehension and Gunning Fog calculates 100% comprehension. The result skews the competitors’ numbers by several grade levels! Finally – a lot of other websites merely repeat the same numbers that Zondervan shows. In other words, we absolutely cannot in good conscience use the scores that are commonly listed online.

I ended up purchasing a readability analyzer and I’ve run eighteen translations through it so far. When I compare their results for nine different factors, they show a considerable range – but also resolve to an average score. I could conceivably run about thirty English translations through the program with the software I have on hand and put its results up there. But that leaves a question. Which score to use? Flesch Kincaid is the best known, and is also available on Microsoft Word (although there are complaints to Microsoft about a glitch of some kind with their tool). The average scores may be more accurate, but people can’t reproduce them without purchasing specialty software.

Here’s an example:

The American Standard Version has the following results: New Dale-Chall 7-8th grade; Coleman-Liau 7.1 grade; LIX grade 8th grade, RIX 8th grade, Fry 7th grade; Raygor 8th grade; SMOG 10th grade; Gunning Fog 11.9; for an average grade level of 8.4. Those are just the most popular tests. When you include EVERY test they average to 8.6.

Zondervan reports it at 12. That’s at the Gunning Fog level.

Now for the New International Version (Zondervan’s flagship): New Dale-Chall 5-6th grade; Coleman-Liau 6.4 grade; LIX grade 6th grade, RIX 6th grade, Fry 6th grade; Raygor 7th grade; SMOG 9th grade; Gunning Fog 9.1; for an average grade level of 6.8. When you include EVERY test they average to 6.6.

Zondervan reports it at 7.8. That’s a grade and a half below the Gunning Fog.

So, I’m not sure what to do here. I’m leaning toward Flesch Kincaid just because most tools have it. That puts the NIV at 6.7 and the ASV at 9.6. Anyone with a Bible text file and a word processor can double check it for themselves and come up with something close to it. But that raises an entirely different question: does this fall under the category of “independent research?” If so, the only solution will be to leave the readability scores out, or to make it something that fits into both Zondervan’s scores and the real scores – like “NIV, Middle School,” “NLT, Grade School,” “ASV, High School.” Does that seem like a reasonable solution? It would match what people see online, match what they can reproduce, and match what specialty tools would reproduce as well.

Tim 15:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think your instincts are right here—Flesch-Kincaid Readability Test is what most people have heard of, and it is also the easiest to verify. I'd go with it, and offer an explanation of how it is neutrally verifiable at Template talk:Bible translation infobox before restoring it to the infobox. "People can’t reproduce them without purchasing specialty software" is really a fatal objection; if anyone challenges the number, an answer based on original research (including an original synthesis of information from other parties) is not going to survive the challenge.

Did you see my further inquiry above about paraphrase labeling? No hurry, but I realized you might have missed it since I added comments to two parts of the page at the same time. By the way, I have added this page to my watchlist, so I'll definitely see any further questions or comments you leave here. Wareh 16:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Just saw your comment at the template talk page. That's fine with me, although, if it is verifiably the Flesch-Kincaid grade level, that (unlike the percentage numbers I was complaining about above) is a widely understood number, so I would also not object to the use of that number (if it is used, the template should properly label the number and specifically link to the Flesch-Kincaid article). Wareh 16:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wareh, I've completed many of the info boxes, keeping the information as broadly verifiable as possible. I still have a few to go, such as the Good News, Living, Phillips, Message. For reading levels I took the variations of what could be found online as the base. So far everything has fallen into the Middle and High School range, but I haven't gotten to the Grade School ones yet, like the CEV, the BBE, and the Children's NIV. Just glancing at the information that's on there... I know a few translations are in preparation and revision status right now. Do we just not mention anything pending, or can we mention it with a link to the source? Tim 15:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, as I just commented above, I can live with "free translation" as a reasonable wording. I think you should avoid giving any information for translations that are unpublished—wait until they're published. Wareh 15:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya! Thankyou for your lengthy reply to the question I asked on Talk:English Standard Version.

When I've been reading the Bible translation articles, I keep expecting to see a navbox at the bottom of each article with links to the articles about other major English translations. Have the WikiProject Bible folks thoughts about adding such a thing? If so, I wouldn't mind making a start on one. Alternatively, if it's been discussed and the idea rejected, I won't bother. --stephenw32768^{<user page><talk>} 20:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Stephen -- thanks for your note. Also, I adjusted the English Standard Version into box to match the one for the RSV. I think the navbox is a fantastic idea. But I'm new to this and don't know any of the previous discussions on it. Tim 20:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a quick go at a navbox, you can see a "draft" of it in my sandbox: User:Stephenw32768/Sandbox/Bible navbox. --stephenw32768^{<user page><talk>} 20:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like it! Keep in mind that I've been getting my own challenges here, though ;-). But it looks harmless and helpful at the same time -- which SHOULD go well on Wiki. Tim 02:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not to protract our conversation, but, given the guy is a tenured professor at a major state university, I would like to add that I wouldn't have any problem using his comparisons to rank the NWT towards the literal end in its infobox. What I would oppose is a "compromise" resulting in a label that has no positive value; if there is a serious disagreement with another respectable source, or for the sake of consistency, it would always be better not to provide uncertain data masquerading as a fact. Wareh 00:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I actually ordered his book today to check him out. Some of the information online suggests that his statements regarding the NWT are not accurately presented in some selected quotes. But the subject is one of interest to me, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the man has to say for himself. Some other sources are saying something like "literal of sorts, BUT..." Interestingly, BeDuhn himself apparently believes that the Gospel of John isn't monotheistic! I don't think either the JW or Christian camps like that -- but a secular scholar doesn't bother me in the least (we need more looking at the question). If he really does regard the NWT in the more literal than RSV range, then the Formal Equivalence moniker may apply, and I wouldn't have a problem rating it that way based on his credentials. If you don't mind -- could you give me a little time until his book arrives and I can see what he really has to say? Tim 01:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take all the time in the world! This is actually quite peripheral for me and has been taking way more time than I have for it, so I'd like to take a break from the subject. Of course you're welcome to be in touch with me, but I think my general ideas are clear enough, so I'm happy to leave it in the hands of you & other Wikipedia editors, unless anything puzzling comes to my attention again. Wareh 01:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your edit about a 'potentially anti-semitic phrase', as it distorts the explicitly stated view of the NWT's publishers. Though your edit was well intentioned, the disuse of their god's name is not considered by them to be 'reverent', and so cannot be expressed as their view.--Jeffro77 08:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Still not sure this works. Their view of the development of not using god's name is specifically stated by them as being Jewish in origin and due to "superstition". Adding "and Christian" detracts from the development aspect. Removing "superstitious" detracts from their view of why. If the statement can be construed as 'anti-semitic' (which I don't really think it is), that is the fault of those holding that view. Perhaps we should actually quote the source material to make it clear that it is their view rather than merely that stated in the Wiki article??--Jeffro77 22:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you available to help redo the NIV page or rather make it better? Or at least act as an editor for what I write? Thanks! Knight1000 05:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with you and I will be slow too in my efforts, so no need to feel rushed. The controversy section in the NIV article seems a lot like reading a tabloid you pick up at the food-mart. If you need me to research anything, let me know. Anyone else you want to invite, I think would be great. The more "good" heads, the better this will be. Knight1000 00:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"However, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Secular Jews believe that worship of Jesus as a Messiah (or Yeshua as he is referred to in messianic Jewish congregations) and the New Testament are fundamentally incompatible with Jewish theology."

I like the edit you did, however on the part about "Secular Jews", would they really believe that the worship of Jesus as a Messiah be incompatible with Jewish theology? Many that are secular really don't know much about any theology, hence the secular label. I wanted to clarify this with you before changing anything you recently entered to see if you agreed. Thank you and keep up the good work! Knight1000 06:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Interestingly enough, although secular Jews don't care very much about Jewish religion, they do care about Jewish identity, and they do agree that Christianity is incompatible with Jewish identity. The best example of this is the secular Jewish state of Israel. According to the Law of Return, any Jew may move there and declare citizenship, unless they have converted to Christianity (Messianics are considered Christians). Although Israel is Jewish in identity, the state itself is secular. I agree that it looks a little peculiar in the sentence, but it's one of those idiosyncracies of Judaism. The problem is that Judaism isn't strictly a religion, per se. It's a nation (even beyond the state, which is only one aspect of thatt identity)."

Thanks for your response! What you have here I believe as well, but not all secular and non-secular Jews believe that Christianity is incompatible with Jewish identity, that's why they were able to become Messianic and this is actually a very growing movement. While Israel's Law of Return is what it is, they have let in many that are Christian from Europe in the past due to the fact conversions on that side of the world were sometimes forced in the past (i.e., Catholic) or abuse in Orthodox Christian areas. Abuse from non-Jewish Christians has probably been somewhat responsible for the feeling that Christianity and Jewish identity aren't compatible.

An "organized" messianic movement is relatively new. The angst over it that is arising is mainly out of rabbinic Judaism which many could argue over it's own legitimacy as an original form of Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism however does have a huge political influence in Israel. I have 5 messianic Jewish congregations in the area where I live that I know about, and they are all pastored by Jews. The Jewish members strictly maintain Jewish identity and some have Israeli citizenship, they go back and forth for whatever business they are doing. I just want to be careful about stereotyping what secular Jews believe because, their beliefs can really be all over the place.

Thanks for listening and check out Michael Brown when you have a chance. He has a couple debates with people on his website that are very interesting, http://www.icnministries.org/ and Jewish Voice is another good one to explore, http://www.jewishvoice.org/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight1000 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Knight, thanks for your notes. Michael Brown is interesting on the Messianic side and Tovia Singer is interesting on the Jewish side. I have some friends who are former pastors who converted to Judaism, and one of them has a radio show -- Gavriel Sanders. He used to be a missionary in Israel and is fluent in Hebrew. The whole divide between "Jewish" and "Christian" does get a little blurry in Messianism, creating some intriguing concerns on both sides. Although Christians are happy about any movement that can successfully evangelize a group, theologians are having trouble with certain formulations of Messianic teaching. The role of the Torah is an obvious one, of course. But the concern that both Jewish and Christian theologians share is the oft repeated idea of "composite unity" in the Godhead. Both sides hold the idea to be heretical and polytheistic. I actually made some updates last night to the Trinity article on that very subject. My personal take is that it's just growing pains. Messianics really haven't developed a coherent theology yet, but neither did any new Christian denomination in the first decades of their existence. The Anabaptists were all over the map during the reformation, covering a spectrum from what today would be called Charismatic, Adventist, Baptist, Free Will Baptist, and Mennonite. Of course -- part of that could also be holdovers from Judaism. Jews aren't that big on theology since it's not as central to Judaism as it is to Christianity. So, why would Messianics be in a rush to define their theology? --> from Teclontz

Messianic theology, I think, will be as consistent as it has been with Gentile Christians; could be all over the map when comparing different groups. However I think they’ve maintained more consistency than Gentile Christian groups, (i.e., Roman Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.). Christian theologians are having trouble with Messianic teachings just like they have trouble with each others theology. Just get a Calvinist and an Arminian in the same room together!

There’s always been, small in number until today, Jewish believers. The internet has allowed groups to connect, communicate and form national and worldwide bodies, whereas before, Jewish believers could remain isolated. My point to raise was the part “Secular Jews believe” which seemed to me, a blanket statement and I think could be taken as ALL “Secular Jews believe” instead of some; were back to some and many. (-: If you've ever listened to Rabbi Singer, in my opinion, I would be cautious about the picture he sometimes paints.

If your curious about Messianic theology, see the added links, http://www.simchayeshua.org/FaithStatement.php and http://messianicbureau.org/statement.htm.

I’ll check out the Trinity section as soon as I can and I look forward to working with you on the NIV section. I feel we may be going through a few discussions like this but I think it’s positive and refining for the information that will end up being posted. Thanks for listening and glad to know you!-- Knight1000 (talk) 20:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your encouraging answer. Have a nice day! --Kushal^t 16:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure how you arrived at a possible belief that a new religion is here but I think assumptions you have made could be the reason. Many that would disagree with your application of Tri-Theism here. Also, while this may be the agenda of a few, there is no major majority movement that is trying to fuse two religions together. Thank you for your response.Knight1000 (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No need for apologies! You stated you, “Having been both” then should be aware that One (Echad) is used in a singular sense and in a group/unity sense. Another common example would be, “two become one (echad) flesh”. The word “compound” in unity I think is being used to help explain. And please to not take what I'm writing as a large singular view of any group. I have a feeling you have been exposed to different views on this than what would be the norm for me. Without revealing any personal details on yourself, is there a web-link you could post that would have your views of the trinity concept (for my own personal interest), if you believe in it that is. Knight1000 (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I carefully worded my response, I am in agreement with these; Nicene Creed, and mostly in agreement with the Westminster Confession and 1689 Confession. Before “mostly” scares you, I am not with the denominations that use those anymore. Due to being now unaccustomed to their use, I find some of the wording ambiguous when I look at them now in a few areas.

Your response in regards to dimensional vs. compositional was excellent and I would be in agreement with the Trinitarian view rather than the Compounded view. Compounded could be possibly considered tritheism however I don’t think that is what messianic congregations are meaning to convey, however I cannot speak for them. That would be like me be claiming to speak for Christendom. I think however this in an area that gets confused by applying human understanding to a "beings" existence that we really cannot fully comprehend. I base our inability to understand him on Jer. 19:7 and Romans 3:9-20.

If God can be broken apart, echad could be nullified depending on the perspective your viewing from. On one of the links I supplied it stated before the statement I think your referring too "We believe the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel is the one and only true God". Then it stated "We believe that He is Echad, (one) a composite unity expressed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit". I think this is where the dimensional vs. compositional perspective can come into play. I think it might be presumptuous to assume they believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 gods and in my mind, that is clear tritheism.

In CHAPTER II. Of God, and of the Holy Trinity it states...

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html#chap2#chap2

"III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

Using terms like "unity of the Godhead" in my mind could be taken as "composite". Also the part "the Son is eternally begotten of the Father" seems like it could really open up a theological trap door which is why I sometimes do not like confessions and creeds anymore over using scripture or statements w/scripture. I understand the purpose and use for confessions and creeds but sometimes they are, in my opinion, like using a paraphrase Bible. I'm going to stop because this is getting long, however I think I learned something from this exchange. Again, thank you for your time and sharing your perspective with me. Knight1000 (talk) 22:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't sure if I should edit that right away, however since you beat me to it, I'll help sit on what you've done. Hope your day is going well! (-: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight1000 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I completed a major update and overhaul in the New International Version entry. Feel free to check my work and make edits/corrections as you see fit. For details on what I did, please see the discussion page for the NIV entry. Thanks! Knight1000 (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AfD nomination of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms[edit]

I have nominated Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms, an article you created, for deletion. Contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated. However, I do not feel that Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and I have explain why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the open discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. — Yavoh 19:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC) [reply]

I have nominated Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms, an article you created, for deletion. Contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated. However, I do not feel that Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and I have explain why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the open discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. — LisaLiel (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, I don't get it. I was looking back at the "Terminology" subsection of the talk page at Christianity and Judaism, and your views seem to have changed radically over the page couple of weeks. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you put it back to Messianic again, I'll have to put the AfD tag back. Whether it's your intent or not, you are essentially promoting a fringe group. It is undue weight, and contrary to Wikipedia policy. If you like, we can put this up for arbitration. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, I'm sorry not only that your well intentioned hard work is being challenged, but also that you have become the focus of the challenge. Several editors have been involved in creating this article and you are not alone and should not be the focus.

You seem to be doing a great job of staying cool despite it all. I agree with Bikinibomb that this AfD seems to be a way to wish away a content dispute and is disruptive to the time consuming work of citing content and completing the article. I am also concerned about the tenor of certain comments - in particular one that attempted to cast aspersions on your conversion. If you feel at any point that the comments to you have crossed the line to incivility (see WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA) and you choose to object, know that others will be there to support you. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 23:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think heavy duty sourcing is the right way to go. I've added some comments to the "Sources" section. In addition, I've added some (cited) comments to the AfD and article talk page in hopes of nailing down the real content of the claim of POV pushing. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 23:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, you might want to particularly focus on sourcing the Messianic column. Some doubts have been raised in the AfD about its sourcability and I'm in no position to help. This isn't the kind of thing that the HUC library has sitting on the shelves. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If things don't work out as desired you can preserve the article and its entire history by requesting that it be moved to a user namespace, and we could also explore finding a project that is willing to host it as one of their subpages. Egfrank (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Technical detail: you might want to move the archived version to a subpage in your user space, so it doesn't clog up your talk page, e.g. something like User:Telcontz/GlossaryArchive. You might also want to clear out the AfD and other templates - otherwise you are nominating your own user page for deletion. If you need help with this, holler. Egfrank (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An AfD is not a majority vote - in theory at least it should go by the strength of the reasons. Most of the "votes" are just duplicates citing each others reasons. To summarize the reasons they are:

• WP:NOT#DIR- but there is an exception for socially relevant info and I think the intro makes that point - I've also added notes on the AfD to counter those arguments.
• WP:OR - but generally Wikipedia doesn't delete articles under construction unless there is no way the article can ever be sourced. There are some very strong arguments that sourcing is possible and in progress. The only column I think that is vulnerable to the never-can-be-sourced argument is the overlap/neutrality column which is why I suggested we split that part out into a separate list that links back to the table.
• WP:NPOV - seems to have died out - I think my point about what is the pushed squashed that line of reasoning.

So don't just assume it is a lost cause - and even if it does get quashed we can request a move to user space, work on the sourcing and restart the article. Best, Egfrank (talk) 18:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done for now as in give up or done for now as in done for the evening? Please don't give up - I didn't spend my evening teasing this table apart to have you give up. :-) Egfrank (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh of relief - just saw your edit message and you did mean done for the day. Kol tuv and lilah tov, Egfrank (talk)

No, I don't think we can be any sillier - thanks for the good laugh. I'm having trouble writing this I'm laughing so hard. Actually the only thing the fact check was for was to make sure it was the Messianic view. I've been nosing around terms and there are some pretty interesting redefinitions out there. Mikvah/T'vila=baptism - Mikvah I understand; T'vilah is for dishes. Kol tuv, Egfrank (talk) 03:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to let you know that I'm also finding some of the more polemical additions unsettling - we can't very well ask for respect from other religions if we are not willing to give it back. There are ways to make points about religious boundaries that both truthful and respectful. And there are ways to make Jewish feelings about those who convert out known, also without insulting the integrity of their most likely difficult decisions. Egfrank (talk) 11:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the second paragraph? It got added back by Lisa - I'd leave it be though - we really have a lot more important things to worry about and she's kind of overheating as far as personal comments go - I find the best way to deal with this stuff is just to work past it - I've had my own run ins in the past with such editors - its always a bad sign when someone's strongest argument is "its POV" (and what isn't?). The debates and attacks go on and on and on and become a huge distraction unless you just refuse to take the bait. It is a pity though this is one of the first cells in the table. You might see if she'll agree just to have the row removed entirely - redirecting this material to idolatry didn't seem to do much good. Short of that, I'd focus on other things. Keep up the good work - you are amazing - both in the energy you are applying to this and in your calm persistance. Kol haKavod, Egfrank (talk) 13:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've reported the situation to WP:ANI#Continued problems with editor - disruptive editing. We'll see what happens next. Egfrank (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update - User:Jeffpw has removed the edit protection tags (in case you were afraid you couldn't edit). My advice: focus on the citations and ignore the editor. Also do not under any circumstance revert her edits again today. I'd stay clear of the cells she has an interest in. (*You* don't want yourself to get blocked with WP:3R or be accused of edit warring). Best, Egfrank (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Ma'am - but no need for formalities - you have the PhD (or is DD?) - I'm just a lowly MSc. Egfrank (talk) 16:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have nominated Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim terms. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. IZAK (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Teclontz: Pardon my advice. Regarding what is happening now at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Christian, Jewish, and Messianic terms. Normally, Wikipedia AfD pages are not the place to conduct massive debates between parties. You did a good job presenting your views. You should not be writing essay-length responses and retorts to others as that just clogs up the page, makes the whole process messy and hard to follow, and is over-all counter-productive and very annoying to most editors who do not do such things when coming to vote and give their views (usually not more than a few sentences, if that.) I know it is not easy for a writer, but try to be consise and to limit yourself to paragraph-length responses at the most. People coming onto the page can go to the article's talk page to see and join detailed debates. Thanks for giving this your attention. I am placing a similar message on the others who are creating havoc on that page with full-blown essay-length responses rather than more focused replies that would be much more helpful to all concerned. IZAK (talk) 12:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

in the context of this particular AfD discussion, I do not think that this is a reasonable criticism. I don;t think its causing disruption, but that the issues are difficult. DGG (talk) 02:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, thanks for update .... reply , visit again .... Pilotwingz (talk) 00:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will check to see if there is anything I can contribute. The problem is going to be good 3rd party sources. I see there has been some disagreement so I will exercise caution before I enter anything. I may ask your opinion first just to avoid a possible clash that has already taken place. In fact, I may make a posting in the talk page first before I do any editing beforehand. No promises. Knight1000 (talk) 01:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop by the article Bible talk page and join in the discussion ( #34, The Pendulum Swings ) ........ I have ask Alastair, Egfrank, Biki , as well to join this discussion ......... I went back by the articles talk page to see what was new and discovered that a particular Carl took it upon himself to delete previously important work in the intro. ......... I reinstalled the original intro. which also had my 4 sentence edit incorperated relating to testament and covenant as well as others prior work which had added a few alternate terms Christains call the Bible which are Holy Bible, Scriptures, Word of God ........... anyway , I would like to have some others involved here who were working at the time these important edits to the intro. were added ........... I am not asking you to side with me , I just want to see a consenses on this matter , other than just allowing Carl to delete prior work that was well cited , valid and important .......... I undid his deletion work and reinstalled the original , but he kept insisting on reverting , and this took place three times ......... I opened the discussion back up , and also contacted him on his own talk page .......... but he keeps insisting on having it his way as if he resolved a consenses to make the deletions , which is not the case ........ well thanks in advance and please join in so I may at least feel there is a consenses this way or that ........ Pilotwingz (talk) 08:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Avruchtalk 13:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

... and do not make unneeded and stupid comments in edit summaries as you did here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot comment on Lisa. But I will say this: although I have tried to make constructive contributions to the glossary, I do have serious NOR concerns. I urge you to read over the NOR policy carefully and ask yourself how the idea of the glossary - its justification - does not constitute original research in the form of a kind of synthesis, drawing on different sources to convey an original project. I think the point is that this is not an article on some interfaith efforts, but an actual effort to promote interfaith activities. Please think about our NOR policy; Wikipedia articles should represent something out there and not try to create something new. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I could tolerate small amounts of OR in summary articles similar to this, if it brought a large amount of enlightenment. You typically can't find readymade tables or figures from outside wikipedia that are free to use, and also at the same time perfectly suited to our purposes, so there has always been a bit of an exception for that kind of thing.

There is also a religion wikia that might find such tables most useful. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know you are feeling down, and I think you have good intentions. BUT: "The only originality of the page was the format." The thing is, format, the organization or structure of content, is one of the most common ways people violate NOR (because novle synthesis is forbidden and novel synthesis often occurs by juxtapposing information in novel ways. I am not asking you to respond to me, but if you value my advice at all and trust that my intentions are positive, here it is: (1) take a deep breath and relax. Even take a wiki-break of two or three days. (2) do not get defensive, do not take things personally even if you feel sur eyou have good cause. (3) read the NPOV and NOR policies until you practically have them memorized. Remember: a full understanding of the policies is not only understanding what they mean to you, but understanding how others might read/interpret them as well. (4) work through a discussion - not an argument, but an open (open-minded, open to new directions) conversation on the talk page to raise issues and seek consensus. Don't just try to build up a team of people who already agree with you. Seek to identify people who are neutral or even who disafgree with you and try to find compromises or new ideas that bypass conflicts. Final thought: Wikipedia has thousands of editors. Thousands!! If an idea is good, you should be able to get ten or fifteen people who support it. If out of thousands of editors you cannot build a consensus, you know what? Even if you (I am now using the generic you. Don't take this personally. I me, I mean everyone) get a handfull of people to accept a version and opponents give up and go away ... even if you achieve a stable version that you like that a few others very strongly support ... in the world of wikipedia, where there are thousands of editors and the number grows exponentially every month, by the end of 2008 your article will be unrecognizable. The broader the consensus, built slowly, with people of widely divergent views participating, NOW, the more likely your work will last over the months or years. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just when I joined in and started helping out. We could still revert to a more usable version, if you really hate this one. I don't think I've seen your response to this point yet? --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kim, I have a 700 page book in galleys that I'm proofing. I can contribute to a collaborative effort, but I cannot withstand repeated and deliberate (and advertised) sabotage. I just don't have the time! And it's way too ugly by this point. The fact that Wikipedia is even tolerating such POV pushing is beyond the pale. I can't keep fighting it.Tim (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's why an administrator asked me to come in and take a look. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay -- what can I do to help? I'm up to my eyeballs in orange highlight on my book, but I can do what I can. I'd suggest looking at the state of the page Friday midnight, and then Saturday midnight, to see the difference. This wasn't entered into any discussion. It was simply hijacked, and violently so. I did one reversion at a ridiculous hour like 3:30am and Sl tried to make some additions. By this evening it's back to the single blended glossary, which violates all synthesis, if nothing else.Tim (talk) 21:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, spend time on your book first, that's most important, after all.:-) I'll see if I can talk with Lisa as well, and see what I can come up with. It's a bit early to make any big promises, except for the fact that I promise to talk with everyone -which might take a while. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC) I'm curious. What's the subject of your book?[reply]

Hey, I wouldn't like to see you burning out on wikipedia. If you are burning out, do please take a bit of a break to work on your book while I sort some people out. Things always take time to sort out, and things will naturally be a mess until they're sorted. Will that do for now? --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still kind of blown away by the claim that no Jews heard of fig symbolism, any Jews I've talked to previously know all about it since it's right there in Jeremiah 24, for me it's a rare thing to find a Jew who discusses religion completely not knowing about an entire chapter of one of the prophets. In the Jewish schools don't they ever study chapter by chapter as the Christians do? -Bikinibomb (talk) 19:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is that Judaism has grown and changed a lot since Jeremiah. The religion of Jews today is not identical to the religion of the Israelites, not even to the religion of the Hasmoneans. Jews believe that it started with and is based on the Tanakh, but not everything in the Tanakh is of equal importance to Jews today. In this sense Jews are not "fundamentalists," a literal reading of scripture (or even an allegorical reading of scripture) does not define Judaism. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if I'd put it that way, but your basic conclusions are correct. In most Jewish day schools, the prophets are not studied chapter by chapter. Sometimes the curriculum for a semester might include doing the book of Judges, for instance, but it's rarely going to be Isaiah or Jeremiah. Understanding those books is done on a much deeper level than merely learning the text. Basically, what's of paramount importance in the books of the prophets are those things that led to results in Jewish law and/or lore. And that is learned by learning the Talmud. As a result, the books of the prophets are rarely learned in depth nowadays.

This has is downsides, certainly. I was at a dinner of religious Jews in Jerusalem once, many years ago, and the topic of Samaritans came up. No one at my table was familiar with the narrative in II Kings that describes the Assyrians settling the various tribes who became the Samaritans in northern Israel. I was shocked, and disappointed, but I've grown accustomed to that hole in Jewish learning. -LisaLiel (talk) 20:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have no evidence that it is obscure, especially since I've talked to many Jews about it over the years, and when there are various sources about it, I just posted more on the talk over there. The fig tree as the Tree of Knowledge, and figs being good and evil, is another one I've heard a lot. I have to conclude it only seems obscure to the editors here, unless someone can dig up a reference saying specifically that it is not well-known. Even if it isn't well known, it's not entirely unknown to Jews as was claimed, we know that for sure. -Bikinibomb (talk) 21:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

Edit summaries such as this one and edits like this are unacceptable personal attacks. Dreadstar † 21:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wish the two of you would stop it. Or take it to your own talk pages. Lisa, you are deliberately looking ofr trouble because you accused Tim of "calling you unpleasantness" when he did no such thing. I did a search of this page and found "unpleasantness" only twice, both in posts by you. Tim never called you unpleasantness. And Tim, don´t let Lisa provoke you. Grow up. forget the past. Focus on the future. Focus on improving the article in compliance with policies.You have no intention of communicating with lisa? Liar! you just communicated with her. If you really mean it, then just ... do ... not ... respond ... to ... her. And don't wait for an apology from anyone. Water under the bridge. Assume good faith, we use the word "assume" because it doesn't matter whether it is justified or not, it is simply necessary if ANY progress is to be made on articles. So assume it, and move in! Slrubenstein | Talk 23:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you are "done" with the talk page you would not have posted another note to the talk page. If you are done, please be done. Talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article and not personal grievances. Do that wlsewhere. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you are done editing the article or talk page all I can say is I admire your self-restraint and wish you well editing other articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks and good luck. I deeply believe, self-restraint will be rewarded. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you are quite right I meant to write old testament thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 15:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right that the article has changed in a way that obviates the conflict and I appreciate your contacting Bikini Bomb. that said, I do not believe it is wrong to solicit the views of others. Bikinibomb has made claims about what Jews believe and there is nothing wrong in asking jewish editors what they think. Moreover, he has specifically said my view is that of a secular atheist Jew, so it seems to me that he is opening himself up to others inviting Orthodox Jews to comment. I acknowledge that this could be adversarial. But it doesn't have to be. The talk page can still be a place for people to learn more about one another's views. This can be a constructive process. When someone who is expert on Christian terms gains a better understanding of how non-Christians see something on the talk page, it helps that expert explain Christian terms more clearly for a general/diverse audience to put in the article. Similarly, when people who are experts on Jewish terms have to spend time explaining them to a non-expert on the talk page, it can help them then craft better explanations aimed at a general/diverse audience to put in the article. Whether this process actually happens or not depends on whether editors assume good faith in one another. And assuming good faith is essential for any collaborative effort at Wikipedia. I know I and others have written comments for Bikini Bomb in whih we assumed good faith. If you read the comments by Shirahadasha, for example, I would be stunned if you thought he were not assuming good faith on Bikinibomb's part. If bikinibomb were to respond in good faith as well, this could still be a constructive process. The point is not to make Wikipedia a forum for interfaith dialogue - but the point is how to write accurate article entries that are also clearly and fully enough explained so that a broad audience can understand them. That is why I think it is good for more people to participate in the talk page discussion. And if Bikinibomb has expressed a concern that so far people participating in the talk page discussion are ignorant of Judaism, it makes perfect sense to ask editors active in Judaism relted articles and the Wikipedia Judaism project to join the discussion, doesn't it? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Glossary of Christian terms Glossary of Jewish terms Just to be clear, I never claimed that figs have no symbolic meaning in Judaism, only that they are not notable or key symbols in Judaism.

As for Bikinibomb, another reason I have asked others to comment is precisely because they enter the discussion with no prior history, no agenda, and cooler minds. It is my belief that they will address Bikinibomb with an assumption of good faith and in a positive spirit of trying to share knowledge. Indeed, if you look at the commentws by the two or three people who have responded to my invitation, I think you will find them to be phrased in respectful, non-provocative, good faith ways. I do not think silence solves anything; I do think that changing the tone of the conversation from one filled with sarcasm, vitriol, and suspicion to a conversation characterized by good-faith contributions is what is needed. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Feel free to move/delete this msg. I replied to you on the Glossary article. Just wanted add, as an aside, that things might go more smoothly if you avoid mentioning those folks with whom you've had a conflict (e.g., Lisa) and try to write w/o personalizing the debate. Best wishes, HG | Talk 03:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I went back to the original message I wrote and saw that you (I am sure sincerely) mistook the kind of mistake I made. I wrote something like "in the New testament and in the "Old" Testament" What I meant to write was "In the Hebrew Bible and in the "Old" testament" (the first referring to the Jewish text, the second to the Christian text). In other words, I got the Christian text correct, I correctly identified that Jeremiaha and Song of Songs is in the Old Testament. My mistake was, I wrote "New Testament" when I meant to write "Hebrew Bible." Do you really think this was a Freudian slip, that I unconsciously think the Hebrew Bible is really the New Testament? No, I was just tired, and writing in haste. It happens. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: your comment, you've been warned for making personal attacks as well. You've also been asked to provide diffs to support the accusations you've made. I'm also asking you to back up your latest assertion, "using admin authority in an edit war". Additionally, these constant comments and assumptions based on other editor's religions violates WP:NPA policy, so I ask you one last time to stop making such comments, or you will be blocked. Focus on content, not the contributors..or their religious affiliations. Dreadstar † 20:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? What exactly do you call coming into the room and saying "I'm an admin, do it thus and so." Okay -- don't block me for a bit while I look for it. It'll be one of the first posts in there... And if you'll take the time to look at my notes to everyone in the last day or so I've been doing my best to calm everyone down on all sides.Tim (talk) 20:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa wanted Messianic Judaism removed from the article, Jossi stepped in, and it was gone. Not a big mystery. From day one Lisa has been accusing Tim and I of being operatives for Messianic Judaism even though Tim is Orthodox Jewish and I'm Muslim, so I would like to see some warnings about religious accusations on her page as well. Thanks. -Bikinibomb (talk) 21:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again I ask, please provide diffs, and I'll look into it. Dreadstar † 21:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DS wants Diffs... I'm trying to hunt them down. I had thought it was obvious, too. But maybe he has a lot on his plate and doesn't have time to fish everything. It's a fair request...~

Okay -- here's the request you made:

Me:Dreadstar -- vandalism, strongarming, and then AfDing with NO discussion or consensus is being uncivil. Bikini's work gets assaulted -- all our work gets assaulted -- and you caution Bikini for being uncivil? That's... (to quote Seinfeld) "bizarro world."Tim (talk) 13:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

+ ::Please provide diffs of your accusations and I'll be more than happy to look into them. Dreadstar † 21:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First, I didn't provide diffs because I was trying to calm down myself so I could either walk away or come back and be helpful. Sic'ing you on people isn't calming anything down or being helpful. It just exacerbates everthing. So, even if what I find IS significant to you -- just let it go instead of warning everyone -- jossi included. And now to get those diffs...

Vandalism diff [1]

This edit does not violate WP:VANDAL. It appears to be a good faith effort to improve the article. Dreadstar † 21:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

interesting, since when I tried to improve the article with a good faith revert and request for DISCUSSION before a complete overhaul, I got an AfD instead of discussion:

AfD diff (there was no discussion on the talk page as I had asked on the revert0 [2] -- to give some context, we couldn't figure out if this was a sockpuppet, a meat puppet, or a real admin, since the Jossi and Lisaliel names had worked so astonishingly fast. It just LOOKED too fast to have been off the cuff. We took days and weeks to work out the right format before, and the new -- very polished -- format was instantaneously applied by two people working together who had never seen each other before.

Strongarm instead of real discussion diff [3] -- the level of discussion did not match the INTENSITY of the overhaul. We didn't even start talking until after the overhaul was done and this AfD was happening, and even then it was more "reminder" and dictation than real persuasion.Tim (talk) 21:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article was created to be a glossary of terms that Messianics use, including Hebrew terms when describing Christian ideas, that was all changed and removed and turned into another article. It's about as much improvement as an admin taking the Judaism article and turning it into an article about Fiddler on the Roof.

In addition to that odd partnership between Jossi and Lisa, Slrubenstein and Lisa hatched a plan on her talk page to at some point label me a troll, and a day later when Sl did, Jossi immediately slapped an archive tag around it and warned me not to remove it. I have no choice but to think this was planned out and arranged with Jossi to step in and make it happen. So yeah, I'm documenting all this and will bring it up formally somewhere. -Bikinibomb (talk) 21:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyhow -- it was -- I hope you would at least agree -- an INTENSE experience. We would have appreciated better notice and discussion to reach consensus. The revert back to Jossi-Lisaliel format only happened under pressure of the AfD. We had been shell shocked from the first one. (also, I'm signing off for a few hours)Tim (talk) 21:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has nominated Glossary of Jewish and Christian terms, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glossary of Jewish and Christian terms and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 13:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa, I wasn't saying that the "persons" of the trinity are considered to be attributes. Attributes are something that God has in Christianity. What I was pointing out was that Maimonides regards God as not even having attributes. God simply is what he is. We call him certain things and speak of certain attributes based on our experience of him -- but he remains beyond our experience and cannot be defined. Although attributes and persons are not the same thing, the beyond-definitionality of the Jewish God is what will negate both the presence of real attributes and distinct persons. God cannot, in fact, even be callled "a person" in Judaism. The closest we can say is "God is Person" but even that is only... experiential. The Jewish refutation of the Trinity is not in the simple idea of unity so much as in the Maimonidean idea that ultimate unity cannot be defined. Once you call God one thing in a real way, you are at the same time indicating either that he is not another thing too (like mercy AND justice), or that he is not "one" in every possible way. "Mercy" and "justice" are not the same thing in our experience. God cannot be called "merciful" or "just" in a real way. God is simply -- whatever he is. He will be whatever he will be. He will not be (fill in the blank), because (fill in the blank) will be a definition -- and definition is a limitation -- and a limitation negates the utter limitlessness of God, and therefore his unity as well. I'm simply looking for some good sources to say exactly this -- because THIS is the Jewish refutation of the Trinity. Do Jews think the trinity is arianism and reject that conception? Sure. But Jews ALSO do reject the logical foundations that are at the heart of the Christian idea, namely, a DEFINITION called "Trinity." God cannot be defined. The trinity is a kind of definition. Therefore God cannot be triune. God cannot, ultimately, by ANYTHING that you can name.

Also, look at that statement from the 1689 Creed. It's riddled with DEFINITION.Tim (talk) 19:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you wrote a note to me here. But I agree with you. I hope you were sitting down when I said that. I don't want to shock you too badly. -LisaLiel (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOL! -- actually, I had written you on the Shituf talk page and was archiving it here so I could ask my Rabbi for sources. He gave me the email address for David Berger and I reworded it a bit to ask him also. Anything you can find would be fantastic!Tim (talk) 00:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't create stub articles that don't contain a single reference. You must have gotten your information from somewhere and the burden is on you to show where. Pairadox (talk) 01:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(transfered from User talk:Pairadox per request on that page The Rabbinical Council of America is THE organization for Modern Orthodoxy. He's used as a source in a number of Wikipedia articles and it's helpful to have this here.

Give a person a moment to get some info together before slamming something, please!Tim (talk) 01:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please take the time to "get some info together" BEFORE you create the article. New pages are patrolled to reduce the nonsense articles, and creating a really poor article increases the chances of it being deleted before improvements can be made. Pairadox (talk) 01:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are at least two of us who are going to work on this article. We can't find the work in progress template. While you're templating the thing -- could you add that?Tim (talk) 02:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

stick a "work in progress" on top so it does not get a speedily delete. I dont know where to find the "work in progress" template. I will try to work on it some next week. --Jayrav (talk) 01:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{underconstruction|notready=true}} or {{in-use}} are two that I find useful. Pairadox (talk) 02:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!Tim (talk) 02:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. Happy editing! Pairadox (talk) 02:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the apology. I do understand your frustration. It would indeed be helpful if you would move the last to sections of the article talk page (which only the two of you contributed to) to you talk page, or just deleted them as an off-topic conversation. I will look at the situation some more and see if I can be of any further help. Pastordavid (talk) 20:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa,

You seem to be trying hard to understand the Christian concept. First, you don’t need to. As a Jew you’re perfectly fine (and safe) not understanding the concept. Shituf is a legitimate substitute concept for a Jew to have, and it is probably as close as a Jew can get from within the Jewish paradigm.

I’d caution you to stay there. Don’t try to get the Christian paradigm. Paradigms are sticky things. Once “in” there are difficulties getting out again. It is very much like rebooting a computer into an entirely new operating system. The old “truths” don’t make sense any more until you can figure out how to reboot again.

However, if you must speak on Wikipedia about a subject, it is important to not only be able to find sources, but also to know how those sources are applied. Your inputs into the concept of the Trinity are very much like Bikinibomb’s inputs regarding figs – except that you are less likely to provide sources than Bikinibomb.

That might be a valid thing for you to say if Christianity didn't claim to grow out of Judaism. Since it does, it can be judged by Jewish terms. Tim, Christianity never satisfied its burden of proof 2000 years ago, and it hasn't done so since. After a while, it stopped trying, and chose to substitute brute force for satisfying its burden of proof. Nowadays, so much time has passed, that folks like you want to act as though it was always some sort of parallel entity, but it wasn't. Its paradigm is subject to criticism based on where it came from. That's Judaism. Nor am I "trying to understand the Christian concept". I'd appreciate it if you'd chuck the condescension and try to understand that this isn't an issue of "understanding", but one of "agreeing". I do understand. I don't agree.

Furthermore, none of that is pertinent. This is Wikipedia, Tim. Not your pulpit. There's a section that consists of challenges to the trinitarian concept, and responses. I must admit that a section of that sort seems grossly (not to say grotesquely) out of place on Wikipedia, but I don't feel like bothering to check and see when it was added and by whom, so let's take it as a given.

You don't have the right to dispose of a valid challenge by rephrasing the challenge in a way you find easier to respond to. That's called cheating. It's intellectually lazy and dishonest. If you don't want to respond to the issue of one entity pleading with another as being clearly polytheistic (if both are considered deities), then don't. But don't try and subsume the question into something else just to cover it up. The challenge stands. Why does it bother you so much to see it stand? A bit odd, don't you think, for an Orthodox Jew to be so concerned with validating the trinity as monotheistic? Why is that so important to you? And why do you think you can mess with Wikipedia in order to do it? -LisaLiel (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the right to dispose of a valid challenge. But I have the responsibility as an editor to dispose of redundant clutter. Your additional anti-Sabellian objection is redundant. Christians INSIST that the persons communicate with each other. They object to Sabellianism too. Put the objection where it belongs, in an article on Sabellianism.Tim (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, stop. You were the one who only a couple of weeks ago were appealing to the average Wikipedia reader. When a person reads of X saying "Don't make me do it!" to Y, that's very clearly saying that X is not Y. That X and Y are fundamentally separate. This is a legitimate challenge to any claim that trinitarianism is monotheistic. You keep wanting to remove that challenge, but it won't wash. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The concept is dimensional. It is also distinct from the concept of the Incarnation. Jews tend to blend the concepts of the Trinity and the Incarnation in ways that Christians do not – and it is in the blending that Shituf exists. The concepts themselves are not Shituf, although the concept of the Incarnation is idolatrous.

So – if you really need to – here is the concept:

Trinity[edit]

A sphere (or any physical object) is spatially triune. 100% of it is high, 100% is wide, 100% is deep. These dimensions are not parts. They cannot be divided. Remove one dimension and you have 0% left of the others (as far as real physicality is concerned). Although the object is a single object, the dimensions do relate to each other. The height is not the width, but the height and the width have an essential relationship with each other – and yet, again, all dimensions are still a simplex unity: they are not divisible parts.

That’s basically it. “Trinity” is not the difficult concept. “Infinite Spirit” is the difficult concept. We get along by not having a concept. We stop at “Infinity” and don’t go any farther, so we’re fine. Christians, though, add concepts to “Infinite Spirit” and you can’t really plug ANY concept into “Infinity” without leaving unscathed. Can you really plug tri-unity into infinity? For that matter, can you plug “mercy” into infinity without coming out with something so imbalanced as to not even qualify as mercy any more?

Now, any time you plug something into a “trinity” statement, do two things: 1) don’t route it through “infinity”, and 2) do route it through the analogy I gave. Did the Son speak to the Father on the cross? Sure. Are they a different Deity from each other?

Translate: Does the height relate to the width? Are they a different sphere from each other?

Get it?

When you see “Person” route that through the analogous “Dimension.” These are not physical dimensions – but spiritual (personal) dimensions.

Shituf is a partnership of multiple beings – the Trinity is a single being, in the same way as the analogy is a single sphere, and not multiple spheres.

Height doesn't talk to width. Width doesn't plead with breadth. It's a flawed analogy. -LisaLiel (talk) 17:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Height and width physically relate to each other. In the concept of the Trinity the persons spiritually relate to each other (that includes communication). The analogy stands. Your objection to it only underscores your failure to grasp it -- and even worse, your refusal to try.Tim (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incarnation[edit]

The Incarnation is a completely separate concept. It is also dimensional. Think of the Torah, for an example. It is finite in length but infinite in meaning. One could continue the Oral Torah forever even though we loop back through the Written Torah each year. The Written Torah can be read in a matter of days. It can be studied forever.

In other words – it is finite in one dimension (the physical writing) but infinite in another dimension (the spiritual meaning).

It is no accident that Christians regard Jesus to be their Torah. “What would Jesus do?” has real meaning to them.

Now, to Christians Jesus is not a demigod. He is not 50% human and 50% divine. He is the intersecting relationship of God with Man – 100% man and 100% God. The Deity and the Humanity do not mix, blend, or share attributes – but they do relate.

In the same way this note is 5 inches (or so) wide on your screen, but it could potentially scroll on forever (if I kept typing). No matter how long I typed, it would never get any wider. It would only get longer. The length does not change the width. But the length would never appear on your screen without the width. The length would be in my head but never manifest on your screen. The relation of the two is essential to the revelation of the one.

Shituf is a partnership of multiple beings – the Incarnation is a single being, in the same way as this note on your screen is a single note, even though it has two dimensions.

My God, my God[edit]

Does this statement apply to the incarnation or the trinity?

Well, it’s not the Incarnation. The humanity of Jesus is not speaking to the divinity of Jesus.

So is it the Trinity? Can the Father forsake the Son? And what is this forsakenness?

Jesus was speaking to God the Father. The forsakenness was the death on the cross. The human soul was separated from the human body. The deity was also separated from that body. The revelation – the relation in human existence and time, was ending. It was the revelation that came to an end on that cross. The intersection – the crossing – of man and God ended right there.

Is that Shituf?

I’m going to stop typing. I’ll forsake the note. I have more that could be said. There is more of “me” than what you see – but I’m forsaking this revelation.

And although that length continues to exist – because it is who I am – for the sake of this note, both length and width will disappear.

Right…

…here.Tim (talk) 15:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa, again -- you are failing to disagree with it by failing to understand it. Yes, you do not agree. But you do not disagree either. And if you do understand it, how about say things that don't betray a misunderstanding -- such as "one being talking to another."Tim (talk) 17:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further -- if you don't even try to address the subject at hand, you are wasting a lot of time for yourself and those who are responsible editors. It's one thing to be innocently mistaken. It's another thing entirely to not even attempt to be accurate after given a good faith explanation.Tim (talk) 18:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your explanation. I do so in good faith. Your explanation makes no sense. It's more rationalization than explanation. But even if it wasn't, go ahead and put it on the article page. Don't try and hide it back here on the talk page. The challenge stays. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You disagree with the explanation? In what sense? Do you disagree with it as a statement of the idea, or do you disagree with the truth of the idea? If you disagree with the truth of the idea, then I do as well. If you disagree with the statement of the idea, then there is a problem -- because then you really have no comprehension of the idea. What I stated was basic Trinitarianism 101. It is not Dynamic Monarchianism, Modalistic Monarchianism (i.e. Sabellianism), Tri-theism, or Arianism. You keep veering off and arguing against things that it is not. Try arguing against TRINITARIANISM for a change. Go do some good faith study and then come back with a real argument. They DO exist, but you won't take any nudges from me in the right direction.Tim (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, I just went to the article on Sabellianism. You're being a little disingenuous:

Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God (for us only), rather than three distinct persons (in Himself).

That's exactly right.Tim (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Make up your mind. "Dimensions" is just a replacement term for "modes or aspects". So what you've been arguing is Sabellianism, at least by the terms of that article. And if you hold by "three distinct persons", well, that's not monotheism. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. While aspects doesn't exclude Sabellianism, it doesn't exclude Trinitarianism either. The difference between the two is that Sabellianism takes turns. Trinitarianism is simultaneous. In Sabellianism God is sometimes Father, sometimes Son, sometimes Spirit. In Trinitarianism he is always Father, always Son, always Spirit. As for "aspects" -- that was Telushkin's term. I applauded it as the nearest approach I had seen to the actual concept. It was the first description that did not exclude the real deal.Tim (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Takes turns"? Not according to the Wikipedia article. Although I'm sure you'll change it now to fit your personal theology. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have to look at the article to see if it's right. My assumption before looking is that you are misreading it (as you are this page). But I'll check it out when I get some time. I'll probably wait till Sunday to change it if it needs it -- with solid sourcing. But I doubt it needs to be changed.Tim (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked at the article. The article is correct. Look at the comments in "Later Teachings" about "sequential modalism".Tim (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Three distinct, co-equal, co-eternal persons" (a quote from later down on that page) is absolutely 100% not a monotheistic view. So much for your claim that Shituf doesn't apply. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Shituf doesn't apply. Shituf regards separate beings. Trinitarianism teaches a single indivisible being.Tim (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm amazed that your mind is capable of equating "three distinct, co-equal, co-eternal persons" and "a single indivisible being". But then, Credo quia absurdum, right? The beis din made a mistake. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translate "I'm amazed that your mind is capable of equating "three distinct, co-equal, spatial dimensions" and "a single billiard ball". Again -- you are not trying to attack the real doctrine, but Shituf instead.Tim (talk) 19:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also -- the analogy to look for in Sabellianism would be something like "I am a brother to my sibllings, a husband to my wife, and a son to my parents." That's Sabellianism. My face, mode, or aspect has nothing to do with my inner relation but is an external relation as well. It depends on who I am with, and the time that I am with them -- one could be a friend, lover, husband, and enemy all to the same woman, but at different times.Tim (talk) 20:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please note the notice at the top of this page: This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Trinity article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. I fail to see how your current discussion is about improvements to the article. Please take this discussion to your user talk pages. Thanks. Pastordavid (talk) 20:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies Pastor David. The problem is that I have someone following me around making changes to anything I do on the subject. It wouldn't be a problem if she understood the doctrine. But I'll take the communication elsewhere.Tim (talk) 20:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dimensions of a billiard ball don't speak to one another. They don't have different opinions. One doesn't ask another to do something or not to do something. You're rationalizing the Christian beliefs you haven't been able to let go of. -LisaLiel (talk) 21:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa -- I disagree with the Christian doctrines as statements of truth, but I insist on being truthful about what those doctrines are and are not. The dimensions of a billiard ball physically relate to each other. The persons of the trinity spiritually relate to each other. The analogy stands. That being said, I must, again, ask you to leave off the questions of my conversion. Statements such as "Christian beliefs you haven't been able to let go of" are quite beyond the pale. They are a violation of Torah, so please stop them. As for these doctrines, I'm honestly researching more accurate Jewish responses to the doctrine itself. Dr. Berger at YU emailed me some suggestions, and I've ordered a book by Lasker that may have what I'm looking for. I'll also be reviewing Dr. Berger's shiur on the subject.

I don't think that you are clear on the fact that I disagree with Trinitarianism and you do not. You and I both disagree with Arianism -- which Trinitarians also disagree with. You and I both disagree with Sabellianism -- which Trinitarians also disagree with. But between the two of us I am the one who disagrees with Trinitarianism; while you have yet to even address the actual doctrine.

There are Jewish solutions to the actual doctrine. I was looking for your help in researching sources. Perhaps Lasker's book will serve the ticket. So far you have simply been a distraction.

Judaism would be better served with on target discussion. This isn't rationalization. It's definition. I've painted the target in the brightest possible colors and you keep refusing to fire at it. So, join ranks with Trinitarians and blast away at their enemies -- the Sabellians and the Arians. But at least get out of the way of people like me who are targeting the real deal.Tim (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tim; thanks for your reply. One of the things that makes this tricky is that, even with changes, that section was recognizably derived from the source--so that, even though the words aren't exactly the same, it's clear where the ideas came from, which still constitutes a copyvio concern under WP policy (and the legal definition of plagiarism). I saw that you replaced the tag, though, so it looks like you're on it. :) My advice would be to start over completely, though, and rewrite the thing from scratch. It'd probably be easier than trying to bury the resemblence.

While I'm on the subject, there's also a neutrality issue; when you present each argument and then offer a counterpoint to it, the inherent emphasis is placed on the counterpoint, so that the article reads as being in favor of the Trinitarian theology. This is a sticky issue, since of course you don't want to have an imbalance in the other direction, either, which an unanswered list might do.

My advice is to convert the whole thing to prose, and to present extant discussions of the issue rather than something new. That is to say, quote a bunch of experts directly on both counts, so that both are clearly sourced to places where more info can be gathered--and reliable places at that (rather than just whatever Wikipedian wanders along and decides to argue one point or the other). This would help balance the article, and do a lot to boost its relative ranking on Wikipedia as well. :)

Good luck! --Masamage ♫ 03:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say I find it somewhat humorous that you ask me to practice good faith, while at the same time call my edits vandalism on another user's page. Anyway, I have listed the dispute on a page to request 3rd party opinions and I've written a short summary on the talk page. I hope you find it neutral, but please feel free to edit the argument 2 portion of my comment. Divamia (talk) 11:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest we work on researching these people so that this guy will have to stop vandalizing. From edit conflicts in past with him it is obvious he has a anti-Jewish slant. I suggest we use a couple sources (not too many) for each person. I suggest we don't give up I have dont that in the past with him/her.--Java7837 (talk) 12:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Raëlism#Relationship_with_religious_people mentions several clerics who joined Raelism w/o having articles for each person, also I think we should request a project be made for WikiProject Judaism to get some of those people articles if it be necessary--Java7837 (talk) 18:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose making a subproject of WikiProject Judaism be made that works on making the articles needed and also works on articles being made for other converts and also Baalei teshuva, what exactly would you call that project? --Java7837 (talk) 15:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea tell members of WikiProject Orthodox Judaism about this, they will especially be intrested about adding articles to the Category:Baalei teshuva if they are not already in that category already.--Java7837 (talk) 15:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might be able to find some of the books you're looking for on Google Books. Divamia (talk) 16:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The project will list people who need biographies and books that can be useful for writing the articles about said people The group will also try to add already existing articles to the Baalei Teshuva or convert category if the articles belongs there. Also most convert articles should be listed on the convert list--Java7837 (talk) 19:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I meant a subproject of WP:JEW, also gut shabbas over here shabbas is several hours from now--Java7837 (talk) 20:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An outside opinion has been posted on the talk page. That person seems to agree with what I've said. As a good faith gesture, I will leave the names in for a few weeks so that you will have had time to create articles for those people who you feel deserve one. Divamia (talk) 05:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, one more outside opinion has been posted that echoes my sentiment. Divamia (talk) 10:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Only now have I been reading all the discussion regarding the Glossary article. I agree 200% with you about facts, about motives of editors, about sad parallels with the religions splitting and much, much more. I agree with your comments about the time consuming nature of the processes too. This is why I'm dropping by to thank you especially. You said many things that needed to be said, and needed to be documented. You took the time to do this, for the sake of human integrity in relating and communicating even when disagreeing. It appears that much of what you said was drowned out by noise. But I heard you Tim. I respect and admire both the way your mind works, and your considerate approach to other people. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply. Lol, yes both of us could be wrong, but at least I'd think I was in good company. ;) How you might have felt about things was my main concern. And thank you for asking about me. I'm feeling overwhelmed but resolved. Fortunately I have a supervisor for my book, and he's cracking the whip, which I need. I'm now aiming to work up journal articles, which is a more realistic way of documenting progress. I'm so new at all of this, I'm still struggling to live by, "if the cap fits, wear it." I expect you understand this phase. To me galley-proofing sounds very exciting and rewarding. But, even if you're used to it, well done! Congratulations! And ... let me know the ISBN, even if I can't afford the book, I'll never rest until I've read it. You have an amazingly nuanced mind, and startling clarity of expression. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"My book" is just an elliptical way of refering to my dissertation -- still a long way off -- on the Song of Songs.

I learned Greek at high school. Later, after my conversion I grabbed NA26 and fell in love with the apparatus. It sounds like your team have done a lot of impressive work. I think I tend to feel blind reading the NT in English, because I've become used to having the apparatus available in Greek. I still normally want the Greek text as well though, of course.

I do like your concept. NA in English is just a brilliant idea. I hope you set a new direction in Bible publishing.

For me, your cross references sound very interesting. Your price also sounds very reasonable. My problems are that I've borrowed up to my limit, and shipping to Australia adds to a price I can't really afford anyway. The only hope here is that my current situation means I probably should seek another loan anyway.

I've requested the product literature anyway. Guess I'll talk to my bank next. ;) Sorry for personal info you don't really need. Alastair Haines (talk) 14:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! :) Thought there was a chance you'd empathize with the finance thing. Good on you for releasing your text.

My thesis is that the Song is largely stream-of-consciousness of the Shulamite, deliberately placed in a "dramatic" setting (with chorus modeling reader response).

The significance is that the topic of the Song is her perspective on their relationship—not a balanced consideration of perspectives.

The dramatic setting—chorus and soliloquies (more often than genuine dialogue)—is designed to aid the reader to the conclusions above.

It is more easily stated, and seen, than actually demonstrated rigorously (hence my tardiness).

It has the advantage of explaining the allegorical reading—her (Israel or Church) perspective is also the topic of Song on that view.

I presume the Song is a canonical "What women want" as it were. It encourages women by helping them feel understood in their romantic hopes and frustrations. It shows men what they so frequently seem to lack the imagination or patience to discover for themselves.

Crudly speaking, it is the most breathtakingly beautiful (and insightful) "Agony aunt" column ever produced.

imo, that is ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 01:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've still got a long way to go, perhaps a year of writing at least. Mind you, I'm hoping to publish something sooner than that. The problem is exactly what you say (and I half hoped you'd notice) in a way it's so obvious it's not worth saying, bits and pieces of it are said, but not quite altogether.

However, I guess there's a bit a of a wrinkle in it all, because I agree with Cheryl Exum and David Clines that the Song is fundamentally patriarchal. I'm kind of trying to "dig deep" and see if the Song interacts with the cultural presumption that "it's up to the guys to do the 'asking out'." The Shulamite is very articulate, and she's also pro-active, but is it possible to discern a "boundary", where ultimately he "peers through the lattice", he "browses among the lilies", he "bounds like a gazelle on mountains of spice", he "climbs the palm-tree and grasps hold of its fruit".

But here's the thing, it is precisely this that delights her.

My sound-bites for this are, the Song is a:

Collage Portrait of Femininity

A Gynocentric Forrest of Androcentric Trees

It raises the interesting question of the possibility of expressing, so to speak, "woman-friendly" ideas, despite "sexist" language.

But just how woman-friendly are the ideas, just how sexist is the language; and is the language of romantic love essentially a different world to that of economic reality. Are these two worlds related?

So now you can see why I have all sorts of heart-aches. "The personal is political" as they say. :( Alastair Haines (talk) 13:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for even more of your mind on this subject. You call her Shoshanna, I call her Tamara, lol. But you are so right that's her autonym. Tamara is derived from his perception. Mind you, I call him David, so I'm even handed. ;)

Yes, the traditional interpretations are a trump-card that can be played twice -- to establish Shoshanna's centrality, but also to establish her role is a traditional one -- at least in the eyes of many very thoughtful commentators. But I think your caveat is very real, the natural implications of the language are not easy to characterise objectively, they achieve so many things (maximum picture with minimum words like most poetry). I really take your point that it might be impossible to prove the author's intention, in fact, I grow ever more impressed with the way the author stays off stage. It's just not true of any other biblical book I can think of. John's right in his gospel. Luke's in his work. And even anonymous Hebrews feels like it's written by someone with personality shaping the text. Perhaps Job is the closest I can think of. But the Tanakh does have layers within layers of characters and narrators, rather appropriately expanded in a similar way via the rabbinic tradition. :) Alastair Haines (talk) 17:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Nice to have you drop in on that mess. I'm hoping the mediators will help settle things. I feel for them, the real issues are too black and white, so make the job difficult.

How's the publication process going? Alastair Haines (talk) 15:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And the good news from my end is that I've started supplying well-paid training contracts on an infrequent but regular basis, securing my peace of mind for fortnights of dedicated research and writing in between.

I will most certainly be obtaining your book. Among other reasons for doing so, I found myself translating the UBS4 apparatus for WikiSource's Free Bible, simply to make that aspect of things transparent for the scrutinising reader. It wasn't long before I remembered you saying the Comprehensive NT was NA27, but in English, and realized I was merely retracing steps you'd already thoroughly explored.

Congratulations once again, I applaud all scholarship and publication that represents "redistribution of wealth" of knowledge. I hope (and pray) many hungry minds will compensate your labours by investing in the fruit. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So... I take it you've finished editing your book, and you're ready to pursue this pointless effort again? -LisaLiel (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The WikiProject Judaism Newsletter Issue I -- Sivan, 5768

Main Project Page Talk Page Judaism Portal Categories To Do Judaism AFD/RFC What's This? Shalom aleichem sports fans, and welcome to the first of what I hope will be a monthly newsletter with the need-to-know information about our fair WikiProject. If you have any questions or comments, or would like to recommend a story for the newsletter, click here to leave a message on the Newsletter Coordinator's talk page. In the News WikiProject Good Articles is doing sweeps over all our current good articles to ensure they still meet criteria. For more information and how you can help, check out WikiProject Good Articles Sweeps. GA status for the article Jew has been put on hold pending a few minor revisions. A list of things that need to be done to return this top importance article to its proper status can be found here. Jerusalem is a Featured Article Candidate! Go forth, my people, and !vote! To Do One new Judaism-related article was created this month, the long requested Hebrew Punctuation. Thanks to Epson291 for creating it. Remember, folks, there are over forty standing requests for Judaism articles, so whenever you get the opportunity make sure to go create a few. In the right column you will see a listing of our most popular articles. All of these articles got 170,000+ page hits in the past month, and they should be on everyone's watchlist so we can keep them vandalism-free. Spread the word! No, not the Word... (well, you can do that too) I'm talking about inviting knowledgeable users to join the project. You can proclaim your undying love of WikiProject Judaism in methods mild to wild, check the project template page and member list for examples. We also now have a flashy advertisement, to use it add {{Wikipedia ads|ad=148}} to your userpage. Quick Stats On the date of publish, we had... 275 Project Members 6152 articles 2341 of which are Stubs 15 of which are Good 8 of which are Featured New Members Benignuman Bernstein2291 Shevashalosh Yudel Most Popular Articles By page hits. Source. Israel The Holocaust Judaism Ten Commandments Ark of the Covenant Wikipedia ads file info – #148

This newsletter was automatically delivered by ShepBot because you are a member of the WikiProject. If you would like to opt out of future mailings, please remove your name from this list. Delivered by §hepBot (Disable) on 04:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you get a spare moment some time, tell me more about this screenplay. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You write:

As far as Shituf is concerned, I only have two isses:

1. The definition we have for Shituf is the definition Christians have for Arianism.
2. Either our definition doesn't do justice to the Jewish intent of Shituf, or Shituf doesn't address Christianity.

And your "either or" misses a third possibility. This is the possibility that the deinition does justice to the Jewish view of Shituf, and that it does address Christianity from the view of Jews, and the Jewish belief about Christianity happens to be one Christians believe. You did not list this as a third possibility, but it is just as posibled as your two possibilities in (2). In (1), that the Jewish definition of shituf is the Christian definition for Arianism could well be just a coincidece, these kinds of coincidences often happen in the history of religion. You do not mention the possibility that it is a coincidence but in fact i think it is highly likely it is a coincidence! Slrubenstein | Talk 13:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, you are a lucky man, your wife is too in love with the you-who-want-to-do-everything that she's not helping you set and keep priorities. That's a mixed blessing and a process, I imagine, I've never married, just trained as a counsellor (I asked them not to let me, lol).

Neumann interests me as a line tangential to my thesis, and full of personal interest. I'll note him down and look him up. A psychological perspective on religion is a good idea for the article too, it takes the pressure off the sectarian nitty gritty.

As you mention, the traditional reading of the Song of Songs, is masculine gender for God for two thousand years. But as we know, the Song is not really evidence for any such thing. Of course, there are thousands of feminist articles that've claimed the Bible as a key pillar of european patriarchy, based the masculinity of its presentation of God. But I'm not sure it's really a good idea to add Katharine M Rogers, Kate Millet or Mary Daly and so on until things have settled down; even then, it's a matter of saying feminists outside religions tend to read God as masculine, where feminists inside tend to do precisely the opposite. The reader must decide which case is most plausible.

I hadn't heard the elo-im/Y-W- judgement/mercy idea. I have heard transcendence/immanence dimension proposed as reflecting male/female.

I do have my own views on the subject, and most of those are still incompletely formed, I'm not really looking for anything but sources that have comprehensive methodologies, rather than ideological convictions. Digests, as incomplete as they are, can be helpful. Although editors make judgements based on convictions that are not made explicit, most are genuinely trying to offer accessible genuine summaries.

I only have one aim at the article at the moment, actually, and that is to confront the deliberate obstruction that is being perpetrated. Please don't worry too much about helping me with sources, for two reasons. First, it is a very low priority article for me; and second, 'cause I think the process required to move forward to a point where I can actually continue working on it is going to be a long one.

Tim, you've been marvellous, forget, forget, forget Gender of God, concentrate on the many lasting things in your life.

But if you can't help yourself, I will gratefully accept whatever you send our way.

Kol tuv Alastair Haines (talk) 15:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see User:Rushyo/Regarding_Alastair_Haines. Thanks! -Rushyo (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"As such, dear mediator, I'd request a neutral positive approach rather than a hammer of "I'm warning you." I've wasted a few hours on this already without being able to even GET to a positive edit because of all of the artificial confusion here."

I'm no longer a mediator in this dispute. I gave the, very mild given his personal attacks and repeated 3RR breaches, warning after my resignation. Alastair is bringing an ArbCom case against me, the most drastic thing any editor can do to a peer on Wikipedia. Please try not to inflame the situation further by commenting without first martialing all the relevant facts (and there's alot of them). -Rushyo (talk) 21:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rushyo, I never said I'd bring an ArbCom case against you. To my understanding, I haven't attempted sufficient process for such a case to be accepted. So why would I suggest that.

I ask ArbCom to take responsibility for personal attacks that other processes have only multiplied rather than settle. That will mention only Ilkali. Naturally, others will become involved, but I will be sticking to only one point. There's too much smokescreen to handle more than the core issue.

Once it is settled, and it's really not that hard, a number of people may well feel apologies to me are in order. I will think very highly of those who offer them. See you when I see you. Alastair Haines (talk) 00:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear friend,

feel no priority to assist me. There are many good people around who can do this. But if you are doing so. Rushyo's advice is sound.

See Talk:Gender of God/Archive 1#Problems with the intro for the beginning of the issue. Back in April, Ilkali replaced text that had been stable for just over a year, I reverted. Discussion starts, Ilkali is slighting, I ignore slights and explain, he keeps smokescreening and nitpicking edit-warring all the way, eventually I call him on his manner and let his edits be. With a few last ditch attempts I stick to not feeding the troll. Ilkali's last words in the section are a classic personal attack. "You're not cut out for this." I don't quite know what he means, but it doesn't seem to be about improving the article.

Sometime later there is another incident, my own talk page comment to another editor is removed, and 3RR violation at that. Silly me lets him get away with that, I WP:WQA-ed instead. And so it goes on as I am surprised to see just how forceful he is willing to be without a single source and with arguments that do not follow logically. His main argument being majority opinion is that there's something wrong with my editing. Alastair Haines (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

means associating another being with God the creator. Many Jews believe this applies to Christianity. Now tell me how this will in any way mislead anyone? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sl,

That depends on a few things. Are Jews completely ignorant of Christianity? A Christian reader would think so.

Is Christianity really Arianism or Tritheism? A Jew could think so.

Is the EDITOR misunderstanding the scope of Shituf? Another editor could think so.

Are the ACTUAL definitions in Wikipedia for Christianity and Shituf compatable? Someone who is neither Jewish nor Christian could think so. (Hint -- he'll need a caveat with a link).

We aren't responsible for what every reader could possibly take. We can't control that. But we can MITIGATE it when possible.

I personally believe that Shituf is MEANT to include Arianism, Tritheism, and Christianity as well; Christianity, because the sources SAY so, Arianism and Tritheism, because the sources DESCRIBE it so.

So I had two options -- either expand the scope of the definition to include BOTH what sources SAY and what they DESCRIBE, or to give a caveat so that non-Christian audiences won't get a wrong equivalence, or Christian audiences won't think the editors are bewilderingly sloppy.

And if neither is possible, give a caveat with a link and call it a day.Tim (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get you. You know our NPOV policy insists that we put in different points of view. Thjis is becuse people have diferent points of view. Different means not the same. Why should anyone be surprised that what Jews think of Christianity is far from what Christians think f Christianity? It is because people have different POVs that NPOV demands we put in all notable POVs. Your logic seems to be that because people have different POVs we should remove diverging POVs. That violates our policy. What tosefist source says shituf does not apply to Christians? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sl, I didn't care and I still don't care if Shituf REALLY addresses Christianity. If it DOES, then write a definition up top that does so. If it DOESN'T, then give a caveat. And, per NPOV, if no source allows a definition wording that DOES, then even if it is supposed to, give a caveat. We aren't trying to build ultimate truth here (nor even to decide it). We're just noting a difference in POV. My point is that the tosefists DO say that Shituf applies to Christianity. So, either have a definition that DOES apply to Christianity up top or give a caveat that there is a divergence here. The current article gives a caveat (and is therefore acceptable). All three of the Lisa edits have a definition that includes Christianity in the scope and therefore needs no caveat. Notice here -- ALL FOUR versions of the article are acceptable to me. I don't know why this is so tough for everyone because I'm astonishingly easy to please here: I want us to not contradict ourselves any more than we are required to by the sources at hand.Tim (talk) 17:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand what you mean by "caveat." Do you mean adding a warning, "but they could be wrong?" Are we supposed to put this after every point of view we include in an article? Some say God did not create the universe. If, after saying "Monotheists believe that God created the universe" are we to add "(but they could be wrong)?" Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The caveat is this: if Christians have a technical latin term meaning "Jews eat pork" and Jews are unaware of the term but define themselves as "non-pork eaters" then a caveat is needed EVEN IF JEWS REALLY DO EAT PORK. The application is made to "Christianity" then the self defined theism of Christianity either matches the one in the Shituf article or it doesn't. If it doesn't match, it doesn't matter WHO is right. It only matters that the two POVs are different. NPOV requires that we note it, or else the application to Christianity may appear to be absolute.

The caveated POV is simply that of the group named in the application. If it weren't applied to THEM, it wouldn't matter what THEY define themselves as.Tim (talk) 18:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sl, one more word to your example: "Monotheists believe that God created the universe". Since "God" is not necessarily a self defined source, we can't ask him about his POV. But let's say that "Monotheists believe that George Bush created the universe" and George Bush is actually around to give his POV. Well, if George Bush agrees with them, then we don't necessarily need to note his POV. But I strongly suspect SOMEONE will be begging to differ!Tim (talk) 18:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, try following the links [4][5] or any other page on that website. Note the screaming caps, bolding, etc. Does that honestly look like a suitable source to you? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]