Talk:Fulcanelli

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I deleted this because it didn't actually refer to Fulcanelli. --Justificatus (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted this because it was unreferenced, unscholarly, and complete load of codswallop. --Justificatus (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This chunk appears to be POV original research ("an almost certainly definitive article about the true identity of Fulcanelli" - who says?) as well as much of it being completely irrelevant. Tearlach 15:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with Tearlach's estimation. This article reeks of self-promotion. If you look at the external links, the first two are to electronically published articles by the same people-- Laura_Knight-Jadczyk and Patrick Riviere-- who seem most "self-served.". The second two are actual books which appear in libraries. Could Wikipedia find a Fulcanelli expert other than Ms. K-J or Mr. R. to check out what is going on here?

quote[edit]

Following in Fulcanelli's footsteps, as did his teacher and guide - Eugène Canseliet - is Patrick Rivière. Rivière - alchemist, historian, philosopher and writer - has utilized his vast knowledge gained through research, experiment, experience, and study under Fulcanelli's disciple, Canseliet - to author numerous books on Alchemy, the Holy Grail, the Templars, Paracelsus and Spagyric medicine that have been published in France and translated into several languages.

Patrick Rivière's colleague, friend, and fellow historian, Laura Knight-Jadczyk, frequently refers to Fulcanelli and his two works The Mystery of the Cathedrals and The Dwellings of the Philosophers in her 800 page tome, The Secret History of the World.

Laura Knight-Jadczyk has also published an almost certainly definitive article about the true identity of Fulcanelli: [1] where she writes:

"After living in the Gers for 11 months, we found a more permanent - and safer - house with all the features we needed for our work. We moved in and shortly discovered that one of our neighbors was Patrick Rivière, a noted historian and author of many books on the subject of comparitive religions, alchemy and the Holy Grail. He is also an expert on the "Rennes-le-Chateau" phenomenon. Patrick also happened to be a student of Eugene Canseliet, the disciple of Fulcanelli. We dispatched a note to him and were very happy to receive a call a couple of days later suggesting a meeting. [...]

"I was very anxious to query Patrick about any clues to the true identity of Fulcanelli. I had read many theories about this, but due to a particular clue that was dropped almost casually by Eugene Canseliet in his description of his visit to the “enclave of the alchemists” in Spain, I was convinced that Fulcanelli was a single individual, not a “committee” as some materially minded thinkers propose, and that he had, indeed, achieved the “Great Work.” Patrick agreed and responded that he knew the identity of Fulcanelli, and that he had written a small book on the subject in French that was not yet available to English speaking audiences, Fulcanelli in the “Qui suis-je?” series. [Red Pill Press will be bringing out Patrick's work in English soon.] [...]

Jules Violle was a graduate of the École Normale Supérieure at Paris, he taught at the University of Lyon (1883), then at the École and, from 1891, at the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers, Paris. He made the first high-altitude determination of the solar constant on Mont Blanc in 1875. The “violle” is a unit of light intensity equal to a square centimeter of platinum, glowing at its melting temperature of 1769 °C (3216 °F). It was the first unit of light intensity that did not depend on the properties of a particular lamp. [...]

As I began to dig into the background of Jules Violle, I discovered another significant clue: he was closely associated with Camille Flammarion, French astronomer and popular author. Flammarion was the founder of the French Astronomy Society, and he served for many years at the Paris Observatory and the Bureau of Longitudes. Flammarion set up a private observatory at Juvisy (near Paris) in 1883 and his studies were particularly focused on double and multiple stars - a particular focus of the Cassiopaean Transmissions - and of the moon and Mars. It is easy to see that Violle and Flammarion had a lot in common, particularly their interest in stars. Double and multiple Stars gives Fulcanelli's dedication “To The Brothers of Heliopolis” an all new level of meaning!

When examining the life and associations of Camille Flammarion, additional clues began to finally fit together: he was an associate of, and greatly influenced by, Allan Kardec, the French Pedagogue, medical student, linguist and researcher of “spirit communications.” [...]

Camille Flammarion remarked: “I have no hesitation in saying that he who states that spiritist phenomena are contrary to science does not know what he is talking about. Indeed, there is nothing super-natural in nature. There is only the unknown: but what was unknown yesterday becomes the truth of tomorrow”.

Victor Hugo, another advocate of scientific spiritualism said: “Turning a blind eye to the spiritist phenomena is turning a blind eye to the truth”.

The Societe Parisienne was similar to the Society for Psychical Research in London, a body devoted to unbiased inquiry. Kardec’s efforts were largely focused on promoting the impartial and rational study of spiritual matters. The Spiritist views of Kardec were scientific, not mystical; and he promoted objective discovery over intuitive insight just as the Cassiopaean Transmissions and our own work does.

Turning now to the comments on millenarialism in the works of Fulcanelli, it is interesting to note that Kardec’s final book, La Gazette selon le Spiritisme, appearing in 1868, strongly reflected the millenialist view. The work closed with a series of communications and commentaries declaring that “the time chosen by God has come,” stating that a new generation of highly-evolved souls was in the process of being incarnated on Earth.

This is precisely what Fulcanelli stated in the mysterious Hendaye chapter of Mystery of the Cathedrals as well as in the final chapters of Dwellings of the Philosophers. We also note that Fulcanelli emphasized the role of science in the so-called “End Times” as being crucial. [...]

Finding a well established link between Flammarion and Jules Violle, followed by a well established link between Flammarion and Kardec, gives an entirely new perspective on the work of Violle as Fulcanelli. It also leads us to the very important question: Is it possible that Fulcanelli made use of “superluminal communication techniques” as I had myself? Was this why Fulcanelli insisted as follows:

"Furthermore, in our opinion, it seems insufficient to know how to recognize and classify facts exactly; one must still question nature and learn from her in what conditions and under the control of what will her manifold productions take place. Indeed, the philosophical mind will not be content with the mere possibility of identifying bodies. It demands the knowledge of the secret of their elaborations. To open ajar the door of the laboratory where nature mixes the elements is good; to discover the occult force, under whose influences her work is accomplished, is better. […]

"Alchemy is obscure only because it is hidden. The philosophers who wanted to transmit the exposition of their doctrine and the fruit of their labors to posterity took great care not to divulge the art by presenting it under a common form so that the layman could not misuse it. Thus because of the difficulty one has of understanding it, because of the mystery of its enigmas and of the opacity of its parables, the science has come to be shut up among reveries, illusions and chimeras. […]

"With their confused texts, sprinkled with cabalistic expressions, the books remain the efficient and genuine cause of the gross mistake that we indicate. For, in spite of the warnings... students persisted in reading them according to the meanings that they hold in ordinary language. They do not know that these texts are reserved for initiates, and that it is essential, in order to understand them, to be in possession of their secret key. One must first work at discovering this key.

"Most certainly these old treatises contain, if not the entire science, at least its philosophy, its principles, and the art of applying them in conformity with natural laws. But if we are unaware of the hidden meaning of the terms - for example, the meaning of Ares, which is different from Aries - strange qualifications purposely used in the composition of such works, we will understand nothing of them or we will be infallibly led into error.

"We must not forget that it is an esoteric science. Consequently, a keen intelligence, an excellent memory, work, and attention aided by a strong will are NOT sufficient qualities to hope to become learned in this subject.

Nicolas Grosparmy writes: 'Such people truly delude themselves who think that we have only made our books for them, but we have made them to keep out all those who are not of our sect.'

"Batsdorff, in the beginning of his treatise, charitably warns the reader in these terms: 'Every prudent mind must first acquire the Science if he can; that is to say, the principles and the means to operate. Otherwise he should stop there, without foolishly using his time and his wealth. And so, I beg those who will read this little book to credit my words. I say to them once more, that THEY WILL NEVER LEARN THIS SUBLIME SCIENCE BY MEANS OF BOOKS, AND THAT IT CAN ONLY BE LEARNED THROUGH DIVINE REVELATION, HENCE IT IS CALLED DIVINE ART, or through the means of a good and faithful master; and since there are very few of them to whom God has granted this grace, there are also very few who teach it.'" [Fulcanelli, The Dwellings of the Philosophers (Boulder: Archive Press 1999) pp. 49, 65, 84]

In view of this question, it might be useful to look at excerpts from an article written by Camille Flammarion, the friend and associate of Jules Violle and Allan Kardec which reflects our views exactly:

"Spiritism is, in general, in bad repute, and deserves to be. Most of its disciples are unmethodical; they are often lacking in mental poise, are often dupes of illusions. They prefer a belief and a religion which merely console, to the impartial and critical investigation without which we can be sure of nothing. These are bad conditions for research; adequate safeguards are lacking".

"In Allan Kardec’s time (in the course of the speech which I made at his grave on April 2, 1869) I believed it helpful and even necessary to proclaim, at this very grave, that “spiritism is not a religion but a science,” and to add that “we are now at the dawn of an undiscovered science.” During the fifty years which followed the utterance of these words, the continued progress of our research has lent them greater and greater emphasis, confirmed them more and more fully".

"It is by the scientific method alone that we may make progress in the search for truth. Religious belief must not take the place of impartial analysis. We must be constantly on our guard against illusions".

"Apart from deliberate deception, dishonest and inexcusable, there is autosuggestion leading to involuntary deception. [...]"

"There are also dishonest exploiters of credulity, who give “séances,” promising apparitions and posthumous manifestations to the simpletons who listen to them. Those who have been gulled then complain, laughably, of having been robbed! The human race, supposedly intelligent, is truly strange. One must have a great deal of courage to work perseveringly, surrounded by these impostors; one must be sustained by the conviction that there are truths to be discovered. […]"

[Camille Flammarion’s Death and Its Mystery - After Death. Manifestations and Apparitions of the Dead; The Soul After Death Translated by Latrobe Carroll (1923, T. Fisher Unwin, Ltd. London: Adelphi Terrace.]

If you're going to remove references to or by Laura Knight-Jadczyk then in the sense of fairness and openness you also need to remove references to and by Vincent Bridges, Jay Weidner, and Storm Bear Williams as they too speculate, however with far less evidence and information than that held by Patrick Rivière.

Rivière was Cansiliet's only student, who in turn was Fulcanelli's only student. Therefore it stands to reason that the closet we can get to Fulcanelli is via Rivière, who has what remains of Canseliet's notes, who had what remained of Fulcanelli's notes. No one else alive can be considered a better expert on this subject than Rivière.

pmoney 11:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was told about Fulcanelli by someone in Spain. I've done a lot of digging and reading around the subject and there are two things I wonder about:

1) All the original Alchemists - Fludd, Maier et al - all insisted that Alchemy was NOT a science to do with materials but with the soul. The quasi-scientific thing with the Alchemists - the idea that it was the study of how to turn base material into gold - was a front whereby they were able to sniff out who was genuine and who was not. Alchemy was an Esoteric movement, not actually a scientific one. So why is there so much in the Fulcanelli story about laboratories etc?

It does have to do with the soul (the mind, the spirit) but it has to do also with things to be done; one thing changes the other. It is not about transmutations of materials, but of oneself, the material transmutation occruriing (if it ever does!) as proof of the correctness of the personal transmutation. On the other hand, emphasis was put in the "living" metals in the "laboratory" of the brain, the mind; Morienus having been one of the first to point in that direction clearly. You can find partisans of the strictly psychological way, of the strictly material way, of the middle way, etc. Jung's appraisal of the development of the Self demands the middle way; the solve et coagula, ponder and do, do and ponder. Xyzt1234 21:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2) Alchemy was supposed to work on what was called the Great Work or Royal Art, which was 'the perfecting of mankind' in Silberer's phrase. The Fulcanelli story seems to focus around predicting Armageddon and an elite group of Alchemists who were working to save themselves. This was not Alchemy's traditional goal which was the furtherance of humanity in spirit and other things. The Fulcanelli story seems to be primarily a dark one. How does this accord with the history of the movement?

It apparently doesn't, but the end of the world helps people in working faster? Omnia festina ex diaboli, all hurry comes from the devil? I suppose you're talking about Fulcanelli's supposed third book. Xyzt1234 21:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My point is - what is the real significance of this story? There are fascinating elements to it - the stay in the secluded house in Spain and the sighting of Fulcanelli as a woman, all suggesting something deeply hallucinatory which seems to connect with some of the deeper imagery of the Alchemists - androgyny etc. But my point is this: Alchemy's cause was a spiritual one and one aimed at the spiritual development of everyone. This was the basis of the words of Hermes Trismegistus and the Emerald Tablet which is regarded as having started Alchemy. It was also the professed aime of Fludd, Maier, Dee, Boehme, the Rosicrucians and all the other such movements. Fulcanelli appears to be completely independent of this tradition. there is a dark, elitist element to this story which does not sit easily with what Alchemy was supposed to be.

Any thoughts? ThePeg 15:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alchemy is elitist. It's not for the common man. You couldn't milk the cows, have a beer and do alchemy too. You had to be a very learned person, buy loads of very expensive books, set up your laboratory (if only to do away with it after ten years), have people to feed you in the meantime and all that, and moreover you would have to be a chosen one to succeed. It still wouldn't be inexpensive today, and it is definitely time-consuming.

I think you mean the Armageddon aspect and the saving of the chosen ones. I went across these notions in a xeroxed alch. book I found, dated 1989, by some "Solazareff", obviously French. It did suggest a millenarian guns and militia approach to Alchemy I never saw before. Xyzt1234 21:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Entry updated for accuracy using best available EVIDENCE.

Bridges' work on Fulcanelli is the basis of Laura Knight-Jadczyk's work. A great many concepts and whole swaths of text have been lifted from Jay Weidner's and Vincent Bridges' two volumes on Funcanelli The Mysteries of the Great Cross of Hendaye: Alchemy and the End of Time and A Monument to the End of Time: Alchemy, Fulcanelli and the Great Cross to create Knight-Jadczyk's writings. Vincent Bridges is a historian specializing in esoteric European History and is a talking head for the History Channel for all things Nostradamus including Nostradamus: 500 Years later and a new History Channel show on Nostradamus that just wrapped in San Antonio and will air this fall on HC.

Laura Knight-Jadczyk, on the other hand, runs a UFO Cult from France [2] - yes they talk to alien space lords via a Ouija Board.

And allow me this time to do full disclosure - I am an armchair fan of Fulcanelli plus Bridges/Weidner and Knight-Jadczyk has had a long time feud ongoing with the cult. Most of which can somewhat be chronicled here: [3] Somehow I got targeted by the cult via by guilt by association (I knew Bridges and his work on Fulcanelli). The sheer insane level the cult has gone to investigate Bridges and everyone associated with him can be evidenced by the cult's "dossier" file on Bridges, Weidner and me at this link: [4].

To sum up, the cult sincerely believes Vincent Bridges is a COINTELPRO agent for the Bush Administration and I am his CIA handler.

You just can't make this stuff up.

Yes, I could be biased in this affair (they have caused me no small amount of misery), but I do ask that you verify Knight-Jadczyk's credibility, plus Bridges and mine before you support one or the other.

Stormbear 00:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Stormbear, If a linked site contains plagiarized material, please remove it. I only skimmed most of the links and evaluated them on basic WP:EL standards. In general, blogs are not acceptable as WP:V sources or external links. Some of the links I left could also be removed, as they do not cite sources. There is no reason for an article to have external links, so if you think any or all of the ones remaining should also be deleted, I would have no problem with that. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I remember that the Abwehr thing that requires a reference came out first in Louis Pawels and Jacques Bergier's "The Morning of the Magicians". Xyzt1234 21:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an example of the erudite puns, the very name of Canseliet:

--Xyzt1234 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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